Overdrive making me lose some definition...?

Nic. · #1 05-18-2010, 06:17 AM

Well, I'm quite obsessed with overdrive, but I noticed something missing when playing overdriven...

When I play my fretless, I like the thump that I get when I really dig in. It's something like a pop, but with less high end, I'm not too sure how to describe it, but after reading this I figure it was probably something similar- Demystifying Metal styles, how to make fingerstyle playing heard in Metal

However, with overdrive, this thump often somehow seems to disappear. I've adjusted my drive so that it's pretty transparent, and I'm retaining a lot of low end, but the definition of the attack just disappears. Well, I think that's what's happening.

Any idea how I can get around this? The only thing I can think of is blending, but I don't want to lose any more overdrive. I know that as I crank the gain up, the definition of whatever I'm playing goes down, making it hard to hear distinct notes. I assume this has something to do with it. I don't know if the accent effect I'm getting is because of the string hitting wood, or the pickups/electronics getting overloaded at some point, but I really want to bring this sound into my overdriven playing.

73jbass · #2 05-18-2010, 06:26 AM

Just the nature of the beast.

Toastfuzz · #3 05-18-2010, 06:26 AM

Using a pedal or amp overdrive? If it's a pedal, you probably just need to replace it with something more for your sound...browse this site for all kinds of pedal advice

Ric5 · #4 05-18-2010, 06:36 AM

I run clean and dirty signals together in parallel. Then I get fuzz and clarity.

http://www.3dentourage.com/425/effects.htm

Nic. · #5 05-18-2010, 06:47 AM

Toastfuzz- Pedal overdrive. I don't really want to replace it, spent quite long playing around to find the overdrive sound in my head. It's there except for the loss of attack. So far I've noticed this with all the various ODs I've tried.

Ric5- I thought as much..... didn't want to have to resort to this though. I've been a firm believer in the "overdrive without blending" camp, since I'm not really using heavy distortion and fuzz, more like a mild overdrive. Nice board, by the way.

rratajski · #6 05-18-2010, 07:26 AM

Have you thought about putting an EQ before the OD to boost mids or low mids to give a thump that the OD might remove.
What OD are you using? Are you just using the drive on your Orange Crush head? That might be the issue.

**IvanMike** · #7 05-18-2010, 07:34 AM

my solution to overdrive or distortion is to use pedals in a head that has a side chain effects loop. barring that, there are some floor units that can mix your straight signal with your effects signal. (not the same as the blend control on some effects, it should be a standalone unit - not sure of the brands but i'm pretty sure they exist).

In any event, I use the side chain effects loop to mix my distorted/effected signal with the straight signal of the bass. The only other option would be to use two cabs and a stereo amp that lets you run one effected signal to one cab and one straight signal to the other.

Nic. · #8 05-18-2010, 08:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rratajski

Have you thought about putting an EQ before the OD to boost mids or low mids to give a thump that the OD might remove.
What OD are you using? Are you just using the drive on your Orange Crush head? That might be the issue.

Ah, my bad! I forgot to update that thing. I'm running through a GB Shuttle 3.0-10T now, and at my regular rehearsal places I have either a SWR workingman 200 or this 1000w Hartke, forgot the model.

At the moment I'm running through a Blackstar HT-Dist and a Distortron, both on very low gain. I was running through a Silver Dragon before that. These are the best I've found out of a bunch of overdrives that I work my way through, I jump on promising ODs whenever they pop up on the local used market, and sell/trade them away if I don't like them much.

I also run it through a Foxrox Octron sometimes, if that counts, since it gives me a distorted sound an octave up. Actually, with that, I hear the thump just fine, so that's why I suspected blending could cure it.

I don't know if boosting that will help- it seems to be a loss of attack, rather than a frequency range. I suppose I could play around with that... my sound is very centered around boosting mids and cutting highs on my EQ and the pedal's EQ, though, so I doubt that'll affect it much.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IvanMike

my solution to overdrive or distortion is to use pedals in a head that has a side chain effects loop. barring that, there are some floor units that can mix your straight signal with your effects signal. (not the same as the blend control on some effects, it should be a standalone unit - not sure of the brands but i'm pretty sure they exist).

In any event, I use the side chain effects loop to mix my distorted/effected signal with the straight signal of the bass. The only other option would be to use two cabs and a stereo amp that lets you run one effected signal to one cab and one straight signal to the other.

Heh looks like I really have to give in to the pressure and just blend. I don't really have the budget to use two amps, and usually I'll have to rely on the backline at the venue.

Thanks for the feedback, everyone!

rratajski · #9 05-18-2010, 08:22 AM

To start, using lots of different heads feels like a small problem to me. You've named three different units, all w/ different flavors, coloring, etc.

If it's the same problem on all three, I'd look at the pedal next. You're acutally using distortion, not overdrive. Most distortions scoop mids, which inherently will kill the low mid thump. Once you use the distortion pedal, the mids from your bass are scooped out and since your bass head is after the scooped mids, you can't really "bring them back in."

If you're set on your distortion, I would try an EQ. You can even buy one from a store or online store with a solid return policy if it doesn't work out for you.

It sounds more like an EQ/frequency issue to me! The loss of attack could be what your distortions are cutting out frequency-wise or it's just the nature of the distortion.

geezerjpj · #10 05-18-2010, 09:03 AM

You could use a compressor after your OD. They can add attack and definition after overdrive or fuzz..

Nic. · #11 05-18-2010, 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rratajski

To start, using lots of different heads feels like a small problem to me. You've named three different units, all w/ different flavors, coloring, etc.

If it's the same problem on all three, I'd look at the pedal next. You're acutally using distortion, not overdrive. Most distortions scoop mids, which inherently will kill the low mid thump. Once you use the distortion pedal, the mids from your bass are scooped out and since your bass head is after the scooped mids, you can't really "bring them back in."

If you're set on your distortion, I would try an EQ. You can even buy one from a store or online store with a solid return policy if it doesn't work out for you.

It sounds more like an EQ/frequency issue to me! The loss of attack could be what your distortions are cutting out frequency-wise or it's just the nature of the distortion.

Ah... I thought very soft distortion was essentially the same as overdrive. I am already boosting the mids on my bass's on board active EQ, and the mids on the pedals. I'll give that a try later when I get home. Thanks!

varunkapahi · #12 05-18-2010, 11:01 PM

the more you drive it the more you lose the definition as you put it. the only way out is to blend clean and dirty signals

Ric5 · #13 05-18-2010, 11:05 PM

Run clean and dirty parallel and mix them together.

rratajski · #14 05-19-2010, 04:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ric5

Run clean and dirty parallel and mix them together.

A used Boss LS-2 will be your cheapest way to fidn out if this will help.

theunknowndude · #15 05-19-2010, 04:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rratajski

A used Boss LS-2 will be your cheapest way to fidn out if this will help.

agreed,... I use an LS2 to have OD - LS2 with fuzz in one loop then the output into the rest of my pedals,... this means I have volume control on clean and fuzz or if I choose OD and fuzz...

OD and distortion can be similar but for the most part OD will be ALOT less gain than a distortion would have,... I think of OD for the most part as original clean signal boosted and a bit of a hairy signal, distortion as more gain and less note definition and a fuzz as all out loss of note definition and insane gain...

from your setup it sounds like blending will be the only way to get what you want back in...

Nic. · #16 05-19-2010, 07:27 PM

I was messing around with my pedals last night and I somehow managed to get a bunch of settings that seemed to work. I don't understand how.

First up, the EQ didn't seem to make much difference...

Next, I confirmed my earlier impression that turning up the gain reduced this sharp attack I liked.

I suspect the sound I liked was coming from a strong initial attack, and a rapid fade-off after that, and the gain was compressing and causing the fade off to sustain, preventing the sharp attack.

I set my HT-DIST gain pretty low, around the threshold for me to still have this attack while having grit and what I think is tube warmth. This makes sense to me... but what I don't understand is that if I turn this on, and feed this signal into my Distortron, I get the gritty OD-ed sound I like, while still maintaining the attack. I can't get it any other way. I'm glad it works, but it would be nice to figure out how I did it.