Preamp DI pedals to FOH

[the low one]

Many of us own a preamp DI pedal such as the Sansamp or MXR M-80 etc but what is best sent to front of house. The idea of these pedals is to shape the tone but I also read that the DI signal should be pre EQ. Should we just trust the soundman with the FOH sound, and anly EQ it ourselves when we need to?

Are these pedals more of a recording tool?

[danster]

Hi Low one -

I use a sansamp pedal and I like the fact that I can EQ for the room and give the soundman something that I think sounds decent. I usually want a certain amount of overdrive and sustain that I'm not always sure I'd get from most soundguys...I guess you can still give the soundguy a pre EQ send, but then you're kinda at his mercy, ya know?
Yes, I use it for recording too - very nice!

[bongomania]

There are loads of threads on this subject in the Amps forum, although I'm not sure what search terms would work. While naturally there are a range of opinions and approaches, I think the majority of situations call for pre-EQ DI simply because what sounds good on stage, in front of your own amp/cab, does not always sound good through the PA speakers. So I would send tone-shaping qualities such as a tube gain stage or an effect pedal into the DI path, but I would leave any EQ'ing of the PA speakers to the guy handling the PA.

[Hookus]

Originally Posted by bongomania

There are loads of threads on this subject in the Amps forum, although I'm not sure what search terms would work. While naturally there are a range of opinions and approaches, I think the majority of situations call for pre-EQ DI simply because what sounds good on stage, in front of your own amp/cab, does not always sound good through the PA speakers. So I would send tone-shaping qualities such as a tube gain stage or an effect pedal into the DI path, but I would leave any EQ'ing of the PA speakers to the guy handling the PA.

Yup, which is why I normally tell people to put their Sansamp at the end of the chain if you plan on using it as a DI. If you are running into a house PA, your amp just became a big monitor.

[Nikoubis]

I was about to order the M-80 but I just may be able to get the EBS Microbass 2...

Anyway, the plan is to send a signal to the house from the pedal, which will be plugged into the amps fx loop. Should I use the EQ and gain/overdrive on the pedal (as well as the tube and speaker simulation in the case of the EBS), or try to keep things as transparent as possible?

[dancehallclasher]

meh, a lot of bands have gotten great sounds by putting a mic in front of a great rock amp, which is exactly what the SABDDI is going for. The idea that we have to send a pure signal to the PA is a pretty modern one I think.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Nikoubis

Ithe plan is to send a signal to the house from the pedal, which will be plugged into the amps fx loop. Should I use the EQ and gain/overdrive on the pedal (as well as the tube and speaker simulation in the case of the EBS), or try to keep things as transparent as possible?

Why would you put the EBS in the amp's fx loop? I'm not sure it will work well there.

[the low one]

Am I right in thinking there are 2 types of preamp to talk about? Firstly the emulator like the Sansamp etc which should be on as it’s meant to create an ‘amp like’ tone, and then there’s the EQ/DI like the MXR M-80 etc where an EQ tweak can be made if needed but the DI path will be generally pre EQ.

[BetterBottomEnd]

Ideally you would like to send two maybe three signals to the PA. A clean and effected DI and a mic if you're about that. Which is most important depends on you and your soundguy getting together and deciding whats going to work. If it's a different soundguy every night then its probably a different opinion every night.

[murph.vienna]

I was gigging a lot previous year and talked to a lot of engineers because of this problem or the simple question: what needs to be sent to the PA?
The answer is simple: a good bass signal which technically means:

you shouldn't have too much mud on the 250 Hz because this is the first frequency the engineer would turn down if it sounds too muddy.
you shouldn't have too much on 60Hz because this will kill the bassdrum's pump potential.
the focus should be on 80 Hz, right amount of 250 Hz Lowmids, clarity at 1 kHz, treble for slapping 2.5-3 kHz. Anything above 3 kHz is not of use in a live situation.
the really low end part 30-50 Hz is good if it's there, but this mostly muds up the sound and sucks up dynamics.

back to the story:
you should focus on having a clean, compact signal. this is most easily and best done by a tube preamp. I really like the Ampeg SVTDI because it gives some compression and pre-shapes the sound in a humble way. it removes a bit of the nosey mids and the hiss above 5 kHz. it's as good for energetic rock as it is for jazz. I really like it, but I don't have it .

the t.c.electronics goldchannel is also very good in this application but is heftier on the purse, but also more professional and will stay in your rack forever, no matter if you need a mic or instrument preamp.

[the low one]

Originally Posted by murph.vienna

I was gigging a lot previous year and talked to a lot of engineers because of this problem or the simple question: what needs to be sent to the PA?
The answer is simple: a good bass signal which technically means:

you shouldn't have too much mud on the 250 Hz because this is the first frequency the engineer would turn down if it sounds too muddy.
you shouldn't have too much on 60Hz because this will kill the bassdrum's pump potential.
the focus should be on 80 Hz, right amount of 250 Hz Lowmids, clarity at 1 kHz, treble for slapping 2.5-3 kHz. Anything above 3 kHz is not of use in a live situation.
the really low end part 30-50 Hz is good if it's there, but this mostly muds up the sound and sucks up dynamics.

back to the story:
you should focus on having a clean, compact signal. this is most easily and best done by a tube preamp. I really like the Ampeg SVTDI because it gives some compression and pre-shapes the sound in a humble way. it removes a bit of the nosey mids and the hiss above 5 kHz. it's as good for energetic rock as it is for jazz. I really like it, but I don't have it .

the t.c.electronics goldchannel is also very good in this application but is heftier on the purse, but also more professional and will stay in your rack forever, no matter if you need a mic or instrument preamp.

That's a really useful post, thanks.

I use the MXR M-80 and I read the EQ are set to:
Bass +-18 dB @ 60 Hz, shelving
Mid +-10 dB @ 850 Hz
Treble +-12 dB @ 4 Hz, shelving

So, looking at your post the bass should be used sparingly, as should the treble. As the 'color' boosts lows and cuts mids that won't help either.

[Nikoubis]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Why would you put the EBS in the amp's fx loop? I'm not sure it will work well there.

To use the pedal as a preamp, bypassing the amp's EQ and using it just as a monitor. EBS actually suggests using the Microbass along with their powered cabs. Note that the MXR is still the leading cndidate though.

[Nikoubis]

Originally Posted by the low one

That's a really useful post, thanks.

I use the MXR M-80 and I read the EQ are set to:
Bass +-18 dB @ 60 Hz, shelving
Mid +-10 dB @ 850 Hz
Treble +-12 dB @ 4 Hz, shelving

So, looking at your post the bass should be used sparingly, as should the treble. As the 'color' boosts lows and cuts mids that won't help either.

Throwing the 10 band EQ in the chain should resolve any such issues...

[nemo]

My suggestion would be to arrange with a friend soundman or studio guy that you take your bass with your effects (DI/preamp being the last part of the fx chain), plug it directly to the mix console and find your settings on preamp, bass and fx that you and the sound guy are happy with (with with eq on the mixing board set flat).
Then, on your next gigs, stick to those settings, send post eq signal from preamp/DI to FOH and use your amp eq to shape your sound for stage acoustics.
This way you will have in FOH the sound you want, and free hand to set any sound on our rig as is necessary for stage.

[murph.vienna]

Originally Posted by Nikoubis

Throwing the 10 band EQ in the chain should resolve any such issues...

+6 dB with q=3 [31 band eq] 180° phase change
+6 dB with q=1.5 [16 band eq] = 90°
+6 dB with q=0.8 [8 band EQ] = 45° phase change

[Nikoubis]

Originally Posted by murph.vienna

+6 dB with q=3 [31 band eq] 180° phase change
+6 dB with q=1.5 [16 band eq] = 90°
+6 dB with q=0.8 [8 band EQ] = 45° phase change

Pwned I guess, but isn't +6 dB a bit radical? I always go easy on graphic EQ's live, mainly to cut annoying/unusable frequencies. Boosting the hell out of a single freq on a graphic EQ always seemed stupid to me and now I know why, I suppose.

Meanwhile, back on topic...

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by Nikoubis

To use the (EBS) pedal as a preamp, bypassing the amp's EQ and using it just as a monitor.

Ah, OK, so you would be going:
bass --> EBS --> loop return jack
~not~
bass --> amp in --> loop send --> EBS --> loop return
right?

That makes much more sense.

[Nikoubis]

Originally Posted by bongomania

bass --> EBS --> loop return jack

That's the one. That way I'll be able to more or less hear what I'm DI'ing to the house right?

[bongomania]

It works in most (maybe not all) cases.

[fishtx]

Originally Posted by BetterBottomEnd

Ideally you would like to send two maybe three signals to the PA. A clean and effected DI and a mic if you're about that. Which is most important depends on you and your soundguy getting together and deciding whats going to work. If it's a different soundguy every night then its probably a different opinion every night.

I agree with you, that this would be the "ideal" setup...but chances are most of us don't gig with large enough systems to allow the bass player 3 channels (depending on the # of channels required from the band and what is available).

I usually just use a singal channel for club gigs (off of a Paranormal DI/Pre). And 2 channels for festival (or large venue) gigs...one channel through just a standard countryman DI (Bass -> DI -> FOH), and one mic'd cab (Bass -> effects -> Amp -> FOH). I usually bring an Audix D6 to mic my cab. Then I make friends with the sound guy, and hope for the best...LOL...