Sansamp AND distortion? Tell Me How!!

[DosiYanarchy]

Ah Ha! my first post.
basically, the issue is that ive had my Sansamp BDDI for over a year now, initially i wasnt too keen on the 'affected' sound of it, i found the mid-scoop too dramatic, but ive got really used to it now and love it, it always cuts through, and i'd agree that some people marginalise it as 'a poor mans SVT' - but to be honest, im poor and i cant afford an SVT, so through my lame 150w Peavey Deltabass, this thing works wonders (think geddy,entwistle,squire) although i dont know how well it'd cope with other less-trebley tones (not that i care, i got the sound i want). ill be honest tho, playing a clean tone through an amp then switching on the sansamp, you REALLY hear the difference, but i could see why many wouldnt like it, its a very affected tone, and it does sound radically different to my original bass tone, which is sometimes good, but sometimes not, which i will get onto in just a moment.....

The issue i have is that i use my Sansamp BDDI as my preamp and DI live, And whenever i use my current distortion (EHX Metal Muff) with my sansamp, it just doesnt sound as good as it does alone (without the sansamp), it gets its mids scooped out just like everything else (even the powerful mid control on the muff doesnt balance it out). so essentially live i would have to turn one pedal off then turn another on, which just takes too long and is too much hassle

my current solution: as the Sansamp has two 1/4inch outputs, one affected and one Parallel(clean).
i put the Muff after the Parallel (Clean output) and run it into a Soundlab Micro Mixer along with the Sansamp Tone and run the mixed output to my amps 'effects return' socket (as is reccommended for pre-amps) - so this means i get my distortion signal runnding with my 'clean'(sansamp) signal so i loose none of my lows, which is often the case with most non-bass-centric pedals.

this has provided me with a cheap fix (micro mixer was about £20 including postage off ebay), but then of course id need an XLR output after the mixer(as it doesnt have one) for a soundman to DI with, (so ive got to DI a balanced output from a micro mixer). it sounds more complicated than it really is, but still i just wish the Sansamp let pedals keep their original tone. also the volume pots on the micro mixer are extremely sensitive ie: move past 10% and the unit will provide distortion (and not the distortion i want)

the jist of it all is that:i want to know how can i get an accurate, fool proof blend of my sansamp and distortion tone (i find the blend on the sansamp isnt that great), ive heard of a few blend devices like the BBE Xotic blender(i think its called that) but thats at least £115 and thats with the weak dollar, and to be honest, thats almost more than i paid for the sansamp. Any cheaper alternatives that aren't gonna start distorting or messing up my tone, like the micro mixer might. (altho i only got it yesterday, so am still working on it, plus its not much bigger than my sansamp so i can put it on my pedal board and run it off my Pedal Power , oh and its got some sweet Delay)
Also will it mean that ill have to get another DI (i know most soundguys have one but its always good to be prepared)?


Also im about to start a separate thread on a bass distortion, but does anyone have any experience with the EHX English Muff'n, especially in conjunction with a Sansamp BDDI?

Thanks for sticking with this, ill try shorter posts in the future :P
Dosi Y'anarchy

[JanusZarate]

The blend on the SansAmp is very good, IMO... dealing with the mid scoop is another story. Blending isn't going to get much better than that.

Have you tried rolling back both the Bass and Treble on the SansAmp BDDI below 12:00? That'll take care of the scoop issue. Just adjust Drive and Level accordingly.

What always tickles me is how people don't really think about why the SansAmp does what it does, the way it does it. Because it emulates a mic'd cabinet, there is a significant amount of coloration, but it's supposed to be the end result - it's not really ideal as a signal going into another amp with a mic'd cab, since that's exactly what it's trying to be...

Rolling back the Bass and Treble of the SansAmp below 12:00 and boosting the Level is the instant mid-boost solution, and the best way to counter some of the problem.

[EricF]

It sounds like you've found a reasonable work around for your situation. I've found that I like some pedals BETTER with a SansAmp after them (for recording - live I use an SVT-CL). For a post-effects DI, it sounds like a Radial JDI might be the right call since it will not add any additional color to your post-effects sound.

As for the English Muff'n, so a search. The Muff'n gets a lot of discussion in this forum.

[DosiYanarchy]

hey, thanks.
when i critisized the blend, i guess what i really meant was: i love the sansamp tone, and the distortion tone separately, and dont want to colour each other, id rather they were blended separately, i will try your suggestion with the bass and trebel, my treble is usually and 9 o clock and my bass as about 1 or 2 o clock, but i have my drive on 12 o' clock and my presence at max. i find the tone controls really sensitive, which i do appreciate, and how i have my set up now is the 'clean' tone i want, so i dont really want to start changing the settings to accommodate the occasional distortion, and also as i use my sansamp as a DI and a preamp, putting something after the parralell out means that it wont go to the front of house, hence my comments about needing another DI box after my micro mixer.
your suggests will be used tho, thanks
Dosi

[DosiYanarchy]

Thanks EricF, at the moment im using the MetalMuff, with mixed emotion, ive tried it before and after the sansamp, but it never sounds as good as it does clean(IMO). and while ideally id love a pre and post FX DIs, i reckon the average soundguy i come into contact with has enough on his plate without balancing 2 chanels and a vocal mic for me. if i played bigger shows then id definitly go down that route, but i will look into the radial JDI, i've heard all their stuff is pretty good.
at the end of the day, i over complicate things for myself, hence the micro mixer, but Live i just want one button for distortion: on/off, and having to turn my sansamp off to turn distortion on does my head in.
thanks for your help
Dosi

[JanusZarate]

Besides placing both the Metal Muff and SansAmp in two parallel paths and blending them together (which would work very well)... maybe you could place the Metal Muff in the loop of a a blend loop pedal that's after the SansAmp?

It'll sound different, but it won't be as dramatic of a difference as what you hear with the Metal Muff before the SansAmp. Plus, it'd allow you to keep one effects line going.

Try setting the Metal Muff after the SansAmp, combine the two like that, and see if you wouldn't mind blending that resulting sound with the SansAmp's normal sound.

[bass-shy]

If I were you, I would ditch the Muff altogether and pick up a Tech 21 XXL. It is AWESOME when run into a SABDDI. It would let you get rid of the mixer, keep your clean tone intact and it only costs about $100.00 USD. I know it's kind of a leap of faith when you buy something without the chance to test it out first, but I think you would be extremely happy with the result. Good luck.

[DosiYanarchy]

thats a good idea, id like a fx loop blend pedal, but the ones ive seen like the Xotic B blender is pretty expensive for what it is, and other effects loop pedals seem to just want to switch between loops as opposed to blend two together, however my experience is pretty limited, so and suggestion are very welcome, MysticBoo suggested using the sansamps blend a bit better, so perhaps i will try that. the Micro Mixer works well, i just dont like the fact that u have to be very careful with the volumes to avoid distortion, and in a live situation where a soundcheck may only be 5 minutes, can i really be fiddling around with that?
thanks again
dosi

[DosiYanarchy]

hey Bass-shy
ive head alot of good things about the XXL, and im gonna get rid of the muff, (its great for guitar, i let one of my guitarists try one and they got one the next day, and our other guitarist wants my one, and altho the eq on the muff is strong, i think the bass frequencies it enhances are not really the correct frequencies for bass guitar). i couldnt find any XXL soundclips though, ive also heard good things about the gallien kreuger diesel dawg, and i was tempted by the pro co Juggernaut (it has a blendable fx loop which may be my solution, but after reading a few reviews i was led to believe that the actual distortion isnt all that, and for anything above £100 ($200) id really want glowing reviews, most local music shops just dont stock enough bass fx, and altho i could go into london and find some i feel a little pressured by the shop owners to either buy it or stop wasting their time (because i know full well that i can get anything cheaper online).
thanks
dosi

[assboglin]

I've got the SABDDI and I've ordered an XXL to try it out. I'm not too keen on the sound of most distortion pedals through the Sansamp (and I've owned a lot of them) but maybe the XXL will be different, at least they advertise it as a good combination. I'll probably post soundclips.

Another possible solution, although it sounds as if you're quite partial to your Sansamp, would be to try the MXR Bass DI. It has a separate channel for distortion. Just a thought.

[Sean S]

I owned the DeltaBass for about 3 years, and I agree...it is kinda lame. I'd look into saving up for a new amp.

(also, you should fill out your profile a bit more )

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by DosiYanarchy

Also im about to start a separate thread on a bass distortion

Please, please, do not. We have so many bass distortion threads already that you're way better off finding the threads that are most relevant to your question/interest and adding to them.

OTOH, this Sansamp blending question really is a good one. Blending can be done so many ways: passive, active, in or out of phase, and with varying degrees of circuit complexity or types of components.

Here's my interpretation of what may be happening to your Metal Muff tone running through the Sansamp: Both of them are "clipping" circuits, that is they boost the voltage of the signal into some component which won't pass a voltage that high, so the component "clips" the tops and bottoms off the waveform of your signal. The clipped signal has a different harmonic structure than the incoming clean signal. So you take one clipping circuit, where a huge part of its tone is in the way its harmonics are shaped by the clipping, and you run it into another clipping circuit, which changes the harmonic shape again. Of course it's likely to be a sucky tone, if you take the edge off the original distortion, or change it too much.

I'm sure there are distortions (perhaps the XXL as suggested) which sound good through a Sansamp, but it's only because the person listening happens to like the result of that daisy chain of signal clipping. YMMV, big time.

I agree with the suggestion of using an external active blender loop, and running the two circuits in parallel. That would probably sound killer. I use that Xotic unit, and it's worth the price IMO. Check out Barge Concepts, though, they are the less-expensive option that's popular around here. The only down side is that yes, you would need an additional DI unit for the combined signal.

[DosiYanarchy]

thanks very much to all of you, im gonna give all those suggestions a try, i think im gonna try doin it with an English Muff'n tho, i've read a bit about them here, and im gonna find out some more i think, but i think its probably damn sight better than the Metal Muff.
cheers
Dosi