Source Audio Envelope Filter Volume Woes

eyvindwa · #1 04-18-2011, 05:58 AM

I have been happily groovin' at home with my Source Audio BEF, and was looking forward to trying it out at band practice. Much to my dismay, however, my sound is lost in the mix when engaging the filter, while my normal bass sound cuts through the heavily distorted guitar and busy drums nicely. Are there any ways to adjust the output volume on this things? Is it possible to do a clean blend with it? (I would like not having to resort to putting it in an LS-2 loop or similar, due to constrained pedalboard space.)

Smallequestrian · #2 04-18-2011, 06:15 AM

With an envelope filter you're often going to have issues going against distorted guitars. There are a lot of settings on the BEF and depending on where you have the frequency and sweep selected, some settings will be more effective than others in a distorted mix. More volume isn't necessarily the answer as some of the lowend and high end peaks will be very loud. Also, try to step a away from your rig, you might find that its cutting more than you think to the people where it matters.

Also, try feeding a distortion and/or octave before the filter. This will obviously change the tone, but you can get a more cutting tone.

eyvindwa · #3 04-18-2011, 06:21 AM

Yeah, the BFE has TONS of options, and I've tried quite a few without much success. Specific suggestions would be much appreciated.

Distortion/octave could clearly bring me out front, but that is not the sound I'm after (for this song). Furthermore, it would involve too much tap-dancing to turn it on/off when required...

Previously I used an MXR M188 Bass Auto Q, and while it is an auto-wah and not a filter it produces a similar sound, and did not have this issue.

rsmith601 · #4 04-18-2011, 06:48 AM

I have seen that an upstream compressor can cause volume level issues with a filter pedal.

Note that filters are always going to remove some of the energy of a signal. They are "filters", afterall.

Jesse will comment on this later today.

eyvindwa · #5 04-18-2011, 07:31 AM

Yeah, that makes sense, I guess (and I do use a compressor after all my FX). However, wouldn't this make a means for volume compensation a natural addition to any filter pedal?

jesseRSA · #6 04-18-2011, 08:05 AM

I guess I need to understand the signal flow of your effects chain a bit more. Did you try the BEF just by itself without the other effects?
We were very careful to balance the Wet/Dry and the bypass/engaged levels so you really shouldn't see any noticeable level drop when the effect is ON.

Anyway, give me some more details and we'll get it figured out.

eyvindwa · #7 04-19-2011, 02:43 AM

Thanks for getting back to me guys!

My chain is quite simple (well, actually it is quite complex, but when I have the BEF on, it is simple): I have an EBS MultiDrive that is always on, then the chain goes through some pedals that are switched off, then the BEF, then some more pedals that are off, and then into my Hartke HA 5500 amp. This amp has a compressor that is always on. The compressor only has one control, entitled 'compression', and I usually have it set around 9 o'clock (which is labeled "3" on the amp). I can always try to turn the compression off in tonight's rehearsal.

I use the EQ on the amp for a slight mid boost.

My bass is an active 18V (hot output!) Warwick Thumb NT with active MEC electronics. I boost the bass a tiny little bit, and the mids a little bit, with the onboard EQ.

The music I play with this band is "progressive extreme metal" (for lack of a better genre explanation), and thus the guitar is heavily distorted and the drums are busy - not an easy mix to cut through in other words. However, my "ordinary" bass tone can easily be heard, but when I turn the BEF on, it seems I loose all definition and punch, and the bass is barely audible. I was kind of hoping for the opposite effect

Chrisk-K · #8 04-19-2011, 04:35 AM

Quote:

I would like not having to resort to putting it in an LS-2 loop or similar, due to constrained pedalboard space

Putting the BEF in a loop looks like the only viable option.

Floyd Eye · #9 04-19-2011, 04:37 AM

My board is at our rehearsal space so I can't tell you what my current settings are, but I have no dropping out of the mix issues with it. Of course, I have a 3 piece so I only have one ridiculously loud, distorted guitar to deal with.

Plays_For_Dog · #10 04-19-2011, 04:59 AM

Source Audio customer service, the best in the biz! You guys are on it.

I also had a rehearsal this past weekend and the BEF was used a lot. Some of the frequency sweeps in the filter (Depending on settings again....) get lost in the mix. I found this was because the guitar was in the same frequency range as the ones being lost, or covered up. The guitarist toned up so he wasn't so close to my low end freq land. I twiddled the knobs on the BEF a bit and BAM! It came alive.

Sorry my post isn't very technical (Jesse is a pro, so I'll let him give a correct answer), but I wanted to share with you that I have experienced the same thing and was able to work it out. Of course, if your guitarist insist on encroaching on your frequency turf, then you're going to have a harder time coming alive in the mix.

jesseRSA · #11 04-19-2011, 09:31 AM

I would definitely start by turning off the compression and trying that. Also, try the BEF either by itself between the bass and the amp or with just the EBS Multidrive.

What are the effects that are after the BEF in the chain? The only thing I can think is that there is something after the BEF that is off but not really OFF and this is loading down the signal. But the BEF has a pretty strong output driver so this shouldn't be an issue.

Or maybe there is an issue with the switching circuit in the BEF and the engaged signal actually IS lower. You need to try it isolated from everything else to really know. So definitely do that.

Floyd Eye · #12 04-20-2011, 07:53 PM

My band just found our 2nd guitarist. First practice with 2 guitars was last night. ( In fact, it is the first time in all my years of ever being in a band with 2 guitars). Anyway, I had no problem hearing myself with the BEF engaged. Or with the EBS, BEF and wah all going at once. TLC is last and always on. Maybe something's wrong with yours.

willerichey · #13 04-21-2011, 07:35 PM

I use a bassballs but when I am having problems cutting through a two guitar mix with drums and vocals I reach down and turn the pickup blend more to the bridge pickup until I hit the sweet spot. Works for me.

Chrisk-K · #14 04-21-2011, 08:50 PM

Quote:

My band just found our 2nd guitarist. First practice with 2 guitars was last night. ( In fact, it is the first time in all my years of ever being in a band with 2 guitars). Anyway, I had no problem hearing myself with the BEF engaged. Or with the EBS, BEF and wah all going at once. TLC is last and always on. Maybe something's wrong with yours.

I doubt the OP's BEF is defective. Either his guitarist is too loud or the frequencies of the guitar overlap with those of his bass when the BEF is engaged.

Floyd Eye · #15 04-22-2011, 05:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chrisk-K

I doubt the OP's BEF is defective. Either his guitarist is too loud or the frequencies of the guitar overlap with those of his bass when the BEF is engaged.

Possibly. Or as someone else said, it could be something wrong with one of the pedals he has after the BEF. Maybe he has a crappy compressor.

eyvindwa · #16 04-22-2011, 06:20 AM

I do not think there is anything wrong with my BEF, and furthermore, the compressor is not to blame (it makes no difference with regards to this problem whether it is on or off). Using the BEF as the only pedal between the bass and the amp makes no difference either. I think it probably just comes down to the fact that the mix is dense, and the workings of the BEF makes it hard to cut trough in my specific situation, unfortunately. Telling the guitarist to EQ his sound differently is not an option, as the sound works well for us the rest of the time.

Floyd Eye · #17 04-22-2011, 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eyvindwa

I do not think there is anything wrong with my BEF, and furthermore, the compressor is not to blame (it makes no difference with regards to this problem whether it is on or off). Using the BEF as the only pedal between the bass and the amp makes no difference either. I think it probably just comes down to the fact that the mix is dense, and the workings of the BEF makes it hard to cut trough in my specific situation, unfortunately. Telling the guitarist to EQ his sound differently is not an option, as the sound works well for us the rest of the time.

I would try turning everything off except the BEF, then get the band playing a song and change settings on the BEF until you find one that works in the mix. The frequency is going to be constantly changing with the BEF, but surely there is a nice usable filter sweep range that is audible in the mix.

DiabolicLow B · #18 04-22-2011, 07:55 AM

I have found that really digging in while the BEF is engaged helps the effect cut through a lot better in a live mix.