Synth style sub contra bass on a 4-string or 5-string

[ianmatth]

I was trying to figure out the best way to get synth style sub bass (hip-hop, techno, etc.) that has the smooth even sound from a bass guitar. I had contracted David Minnieweather to build a 5-string sub-contra for me over 2 years ago, but 14 months later he died, so I was out $3000+ on that. I messed around with sub-contra on a Conklin Groove Tools Bill Dickens 7-string, but the pickups and preamp were ideal. I have a Fernandes Gravity 5 Deluxe strung to sub-contra, but the EMG pickups aren't ideal. I was thinking about getting some custom Villex pickups, but I still don't know if it will have the sound I'm looking for.

Before I spoke with David, I spoke with Jauqo III-X (he had actually referred me to David) and Garry Goodman. They definitely know what they're doing, but listening to their recordings it isn't quite the sound I'm looking for. If I had the money these days, I would contract Oscar Pratt to make a sub-contra bass, but at this point I'm thinking about some other options to get the sound I want with the basses I already have.

I'd think putting the Fernandes through a sine wave filter could do it as the synth keyboards are just using a wave filter to get that sound. My luthier does recording and he recorded some hip-hop tracks with great bass using a Roland Synth module. He thought I could hook even a 4-string up through something like that and mix in the synth, but a Roland synth is not cheap. Also, a typical keyboard does 27.5 Hz A anyway, so I don't think they're typically dropping the octave. I want to go down to 20 Hz and not have it have that cannon sound that often comes off as harsh (the metal sub-contra bass sound that my G5D does pretty well), but rather a smooth techno bass sound, and that's why I though putting my G5D through a sine wave filter would smooth it out and give it the sound I'm looking for.

Another option would be to use an octave pedal with a 4-string, and probably still put it through some kind of synth wave effect. I heard some recordings with the POG2 and it seems like it can track well enough to do that.

The dbx 120A Subharmonic Sythesizer would probably give me the sound I was looking for, but it only does that from 26Hz-55Hz (55Hz-110 Hz input). If they made something that would do that from 20Hz-160Hz (40 Hz-320 Hz input) it would be the ultimate octaver for a 4-string bass, I wish someone made such a device.

If I was a real engineer I'd probably try to make my own effect. Something that could drop the octave, wave filter it, and still track decently at 20Hz would be the ultimate for getting that synth style sub contra bass sound on a 4-string bass.

If anybody knows of anything like that, or even a decent but affordable wave filter that I could run my bass through, let me know.

[grommit]

I'd do the tracking before pitch shifting.
Because tracking latency increases with lower frequencies, because of the longer cycle to read.
Some companys (axion?) have tried predictive kind of things where based on the beginning of the waveform it makes a guess at pitch, but the best way is to do it at a higher frequency.

After that your synth can do anything you want.

[Explorer]

It's my understanding that keyboard filters generally have the option of tracking the keyboard, and of having their settings change up and down corresponding to the note position pressed on the keyboard. So, if you press something higher on the keyboard, the filter's resonance will be for a higher pitch than if you press a low note.

So, if a filter which will produce a sinewave at E1 is used on a more complex wave at E2, wouldn't the entire higher wave be above the cut-off for the filter?

I'm just asking because I've not seen a filter which tracks to pitch available without pitch detection in the first place.

The only device I've seen which creates a less complex wave over the pitch range of my biggest instrument (over 6 octaves) is the Electro-Harmonix HOG, which generates the sound of its various sliders from some sort of sampling process. However, the HOG already has sliders for one and two octaves below the input pitch, so I normally don't use the very lowest slider for bass applications, because I don't need ultra-deep frequencies.

As far as I'm aware, by the way, the HOG will produce pitches below 20hz.

----

As one more additional observation, I own an incredibly fast tracking guitar controller from Yamaha, the G10C. Like that MIDI Chapman stick which doesn't output sound but just MIDI signals, it's strung entirely with strings of the same thickness, in order to avoid tracking problems.

[aledeville]

I don't want to question your knowledge about frequencies, it's response and the thing about low frequencies and the cabs, but do you know how deep 20Hz is?
In almost every club, they have high pass filter or at least a graphic EQ that takes everything about below 30Hz.
What kind of cab do you have? If it's a standard bass cab you can forget your experiment right away.

Originally Posted by ianmatth

The dbx 120A Subharmonic Sythesizer would probably give me the sound I was looking for, but it only does that from 26Hz-55Hz

This tells me that you don't really know what you're talking about. Ehm, this thing is made for PA purposes, you can't buy yourself something from the last 6Hz you desire. I bet you won't ever hear a difference between a 20 and 26Hz sinuswave.

[JAUQO III-X]

What type of sound are you actually looking for?

[bigblondeafro87]

Sine wave filter? What do you mean by that? I think you should give us a link to a song with similar bass.

It sounds to me like you want a low pass filter and possibly some kind of waveshaper (distortion, synth, etc). You might be better of getting a subcontra bass as opposed to buying an octaver for those really low notes because most octaver tend to start crapping out on the lower notes of a standard bass. Run the bass through a filter, and voila! Smooth deep bass

[Step]

I actually think going subcontrabass with this might be the wrong thing.

Since you're going to use a boatload of effects anyway you might be better of using a 200$ squier (or whatever you prefer) thrown through a DSP which converts your signal to 1 octave below the original. After that you could tag on whatever you want and get a great subby/dubby techno sound.

[ianmatth]

Explorer - Speaking of the EHX HOG, I was thinking of a POG 2, and I heard some recordings that came close to what I was looking for, but still isn't quite it: POG2: Electric Boogaloo

aledeville - I had a Basson B410B and I actually put the 12.98 Hz note from octave4plus.com through it, and it could seemingly handle it as everyone who listened to it said they could feel it, but not hear it. I strung the Bill Dickens 7-string I had as low as 15 Hz with a .206 string and it could get the fundamental, so I do know how deep those notes really are. I actually sold that cabinet to my luthier and have a PJB Flightcase. Garry Goodman said the PJB Briefcase could handle 15 Hz, and the Flightcase can handle 20 Hz (I should play some of the octave4plus files through it to see if it can go lower.) Never tried nor even heard recording of the dbx 120A, just saw it recommended over octave pedals, and that some people had used it for bass guitar. A far as a pure sine wave, it may be hard to tell, but I can definitely tell the difference between an E and an A note, so if there is any tone there I'll know the difference.

JAUQO III-X - I'd describe it as a smooth, sustained sound that is found more in hip-hop than other genres. I'd think it should be as simple as talking a sub-contra bass guitar and putting it through the same filters they are using with a keyboard. It may be the quality of recordings on youtube, but I have yet to find something that really catches that sound lower than 26 Hz. I'll keep looking to see if I can find something to post that really catches it. On the other hand, I wouldn't mind finding a sub-contra vintage Jazz Bass or Rickenbacker sound, but that may be simply about having a proper sub-contra bass guitar.

bigblondeafro87 - I think what you said about a waveshaper is hitting closer to what I'm looking for because a pure sine wave is unquestionably not it, what filter would you recommend because I would describe what I'm looking for as smooth deep bass.

Step - any recommendations on a DSP

[Explorer]

Originally Posted by ianmatth

I'd describe it as a smooth, sustained sound that is found more in hip-hop than other genres. ...I have yet to find something that really catches that sound lower than 26 Hz. I'll keep looking to see if I can find something to post that really catches it. ...I would describe what I'm looking for as smooth deep bass.

A sound clip is worth a thousand words. Since you apparently have heard the sound in hip-hop recordings, I look forward to hearing the clip(s), so we can zero in on exactly the sound you want, instead of making suggestions based on what we think you're describing.

[ianmatth]

Originally Posted by Explorer

A sound clip is worth a thousand words. Since you apparently have heard the sound in hip-hop recordings, I look forward to hearing the clip(s), so we can zero in on exactly the sound you want, instead of making suggestions based on what we think you're describing.

I've heard the tone, but not at that low of frequency, so it may be that 20Hz would never have that tone. I'd explain the ideal tone as the synth bass tone (not the bass drum tone that comes in a few seconds later) at the beginning of T.I. - What you know http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N5lIWti4VUw

But that isn't even sub-30Hz, so it's like saying I want a 20Hz Vinatge Jazz Bass tone and giving you a video of someone playing a 4-string Jazz Bass in drop D, I have an idea what I'd like it to sound like based on the 20Hz notes I've heard, but I've never actually heard it with the tone I am looking for.

I've tried looking up DJ Majic Mike, Techmaster PEB, and all those other supposedly super low Miami bass type groups, but none of them seem to come close to 20Hz, and they aren't exactly the tone I'm looking for anyway. Everything with 20Hz is some kind of sub woofer test that is much closer to a pure sine wave and doesn't have a pleasing tone. If anybody knows of any particular song that has that sustained smooth synth bass sound under 26 Hz, post a link, but I can't seem to find a single one.

[bigblondeafro87]

The moog mf101 does low deep and smooth. I think you may run into a problem trying to produce a note that low at any volume where you will be noticed in the mix.

[JimmyM]

you know, i'm as sad as anyone when someone i know dies, but i would totally go after the estate if someone died holding my $3000.

[Stick_Player]

i would totally go after the estate if someone died holding my $3000.

I was thinking the same thing.

The dough is somewhere.

File a claim.

[aledeville]

@Explorer
I really recommend that you download a sinusgenerator and try out these low frequecies through your cabs, because when you play a string tuned so low (e.g. 20-30Hz) the thing you really hear are the upper harmonics. I bet with your cabs there is at least -6dB at 40Hz...

[khabalah]

Originally Posted by bigblondeafro87

The moog mf101 does low deep and smooth. I think you may run into a problem trying to produce a note that low at any volume where you will be noticed in the mix.

+1 yep, the moog certainly DOES do low deep and smooth

[kevteop]

Originally Posted by ianmatth

I'd describe it as a smooth, sustained sound that is found more in hip-hop than other genres.

Get an analogue octaver? Seems like the simplest solution. It does work for that sort of thing, pair it with a filter or amp that you can trigger with an ADSR envelope and you'll get good control over the sustain too. If you need more sustain string your bass with flats.

[ianmatth]

Appreciate all the suggestions. Checked out some clips of the Moog mf101, can't really tell much, but I'm not interested in that techno space alien sound that comes from increasing resonance. I actually found a clip of a guy playing bass and this is closer to the tone I'm looking for, although I would describe it as a little farty. He said he's just using an octaver
Tom Browne - Funkin' For Jamaica (synth bass): http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w9IuItsLzuc

About the Minnieweather thing, I'm not going to get into details, but I'm sure the $3000 had been well spent by the time he died. However, based on some of the things he said to me in the preceding months, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a bass built that ended up in a pawn shop or sold to someone else, so if anyone comes across a 5-string Minnieweather bass with a mahogany body, Villex soapbar pickups, and an Audere preamp, it could be mine.

aledeville - not sure if this was directed to me, but the Basson B410B is rated down to 28Hz which is the lowest spec of any cabinet out there, and Jauqo and Garry Goodman can both attest it will do sub-20Hz as they both own the B510B which was touted to do 18Hz and Victor Basson said the B410B could handle the same lows, just not the highs as well.

[fokof]

Any 4 stringer , a GK3 and a VB99.

Bingo !

[ianmatth]

Originally Posted by fokof

Any 4 stringer , a GK3 and a VB99.

Bingo !

The VB99 has promise, but it aint cheap, maybe someone wants to trade one for a bass.

[bigblondeafro87]

Techno space alien sound? Well the moog has a resonance knob, so you can make it sound smooth or resonant. Its one of the most used pedals for bass in reggae, dub, etc for low deep bass. And for that video you posted, an OC-2 and a MF101 will get very close.