Tone Hammer as a preamp? Something else?

[BigInThe80s]

I will try to make this post more lucid and well thought out than my other rambling disasters. It crosses over into amps a bit, but I think it is mostly effect related.

Th facts as I see them:

1. I have resigned myself to the reality that I am going to have to acquire some type of power amp for practice and for times when IEM's are not practical.

2. I don't see any reason to buy Markbass at $0.86 or $1.20 per watt when I can buy QSC for $0.50 per watt. (At 4Ω)

3. The downside to point #2 is that I have no preamp slated for my new rig.

4. I have a shiny new Sansamp VT Bass which should make an ok preamp most of the time. Unfortunately, there will probably be many times when I turn it off.

Taking those points into consideration, I have been looking for something with some EQ that will adequately drive a power amp. I'm not looking for a full-blown rack preamp. I would rather just have some quality EQ with a couple of outputs.


Now we get to the Aguilar Tone Hammer in my subject line. It seems to have some reasonable EQ. Two questions:

1. How do you think it would work as a preamp sitting at the end of the effects chain?

Something like: some effects -> VT -> other effects and compressor -> Tone Hammer

2. Will the VT and the Tone Hammer play nice together (as long as the AGS is disengaged)?

3. Can I use both the XLR and 1/4" outputs on the Tone Hammer at the same time? So the XLR can go to the house and the 1/4" can go to the power amp?


I wouldn't have minded if it had two adjustable mids - but I am not willing to plunk down the cash for a rack mount parametric EQ.

I am open to other ideas. The EBS Microbass seems like overkill. I have a Sansamp BDDI that I could stick on the end of the line, but the EQ on it is suboptimal.

[bongomania]

Believe it or not, I think you've got it all right. Yes it will do the things you want it to, and there should be no problems.

[BigInThe80s]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Believe it or not, I think you've got it all right. Yes it will do the things you want it to, and there should be no problems.

No kidding? Really?

I feel... smart. I feel like a winner. I feel... great!


PS: Are there any better choices?

[Hizzoner]

tonehammer will drive a qsc plx 1602 based on my own experience and is a very useful pre...don't care for the volume boost with the ags but I dont use the ags..thats what agro is for!

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by BigInThe80s

PS: Are there any better choices?

Different, but not necessarily better. For a very tubey tone, check out the DHA VT1-EQ. Actually they have a solid-state version out too, worth looking into. You might also check out the new 3-channel version of the VT that Tech21 is coming out with soon. There are threads about it. That would allow you to use e.g. one channel for the Ampeg tone, another channel as the clean tone, and the third for whatever, maybe semi-clean with different EQ. It also has a DI output, unlike the original VT.

[blendermassacre]

I think the only "hole" I see in your logic, is using the $/watt differential without adding the preamp into the cost. Obviously markbass has the preamp cost built in, so I think you'll probably come out about equal (especially at the $.86 watt).


also, the xlr and 1/4 can be used together. That's the point of having a DI / Pre pedal, very much like the Tech 21 BDDI.

Since the VT bass deluxe is coming out, I would imagine that there is about to be a flood of standard VT bass pedals coming onto the market soon. If you want to run the tonehammer as a pre / DI and use the vt bass as an effects pedal, it should work. I don't, however see a way to run the both as the "pre" to your same poweramp, unless you're splitting the signals and using different channels on the poweramp.

Hope this helps.

[BigInThe80s]

Originally Posted by blendermassacre

I think the only "hole" I see in your logic, is using the $/watt differential without adding the preamp into the cost. Obviously markbass has the preamp cost built in, so I think you'll probably come out about equal (especially at the $.86 watt).

That had crossed my mind and is a valid point.

Both the QSC RMX and PLX are around $0.50 per watt in the smallest sizes. Using that as a baseline, a Little Mark 800 has about $300.00 worth of pre-amp. I came up with that by taking its 4Ω rating (800 watts) and multiplying that by $0.50 ($400) and subtracting that from its commonly available price ($700).

I can get the Tone Hammer for around $200. So, Tone Hammer + power amp = saving $100 over the Little Mark 800.

That isn't really apples to apples. With the LM800 you lose the sweepable mid of the Tone Hammer. However, you gain two mids and the VLE and VPF shortcuts, and the ability to adjust the line out level.

By the time you count the power supply hassle of the Tone Hammer, I suppose it gets close to being a wash.

I'm not sure how I would get the Little Mark to play nice with with my IEM mixer.

Originally Posted by blendermassacre

If you want to run the tonehammer as a pre / DI and use the vt bass as an effects pedal, it should work. I don't, however see a way to run the both as the "pre" to your same poweramp, unless you're splitting the signals and using different channels on the poweramp.

I will be using the VT solely as an effect, so no worries there.

Originally Posted by blendermassacre

Hope this helps.

Help? I had my mind made up. Thanks a lot for renewing the raging debate in my brain!

My apologies to all for turning this thread more amp focused. I try to be very respectful of forum rules and am starting to wish I had posted this in the amp section.

[ryansalmond]

I think this is a good plan. I have nothing against separate power amp + preamp systems. The modularity appeals to me.

That being said, comparing power amps is a question of more than watts vs. watts. Of the different amplification systems I have tried, the 500w Markbass F1 was louder and cleaner than the 700w GK 1001RB. The 300w Mesa M3 Carbine was way louder and cleaner than the 300w Mesa Walkabout. The Yamaha power amp I rented (don't recall specifically, but think it was at least 600w and possibly a lot more) was somewhere in the middle.

[P-oddz]

Tone Hammer user here!

I use the Tone Hammer specifically at the end of my pedal chain and it works great in sequence.

Heres my chain:
Bass -> Tuner -> Octamizer -> Distortron -> Tone Hammer

Using a dirt/OD pedal into the Tone Hammer can be a little tricky with the AGS on (you really just have to tune pedals so it doesn't get out of control). Personally I have found my ideal tone WITH the AGS enabled, and Gain dialed to 11:00 or less. Everything stays on at all times. Using the Distortron to push to a really "Gainy" signal, I just have to compensate a bit and add some more treble via the Distortron to prevent it going into too muddy territory.

To answer specifically about the VT going into the Tone Hammer, I could let you know in a couple of days if you can hold on that long. (Gears packed up now for a mini three-day gig-a-thon ) But I've got a VT Bass at home, and can let you know. Off-the-cuff, I would probably say that unless you are dialing in some grind with the VT, the Tone Hammer can probably dial in the what you may be trying to dial in with your VT. I guess it all depends on what tone you are trying to cop now with the VT. By adding the Tone Hammer, you may realize your VT is no longer needed as a tone shaper, and you may consider using it in another way.

Now that all being said, I am completely happy with my Tone Hammer and what it's done for shaping my sound, and the versatility that it brings. As mentioned before - you've got your multiple outputs, you've got a nice EQ setup (like you mentioned with fully sweepable mids) and it comes in a handy package IMO.

Like I said before, if you can wait a couple days (Sunday/Monday) I can have some time to play with both pedals, and be more specific for you. If that's the case, let me know what you are trying to achieve with your VT now (tone wise). Or give me your dialed in tone specs, and I'll work with that.

[G RICH 5]

A friend of mine has been using the hammer with the SWR light power amp, and he said it is awsome. Just another route to go.

[BigInThe80s]

Originally Posted by P-oddz

Like I said before, if you can wait a couple days (Sunday/Monday) I can have some time to play with both pedals, and be more specific for you. If that's the case, let me know what you are trying to achieve with your VT now (tone wise). Or give me your dialed in tone specs, and I'll work with that.

Oh, I can wait. I can't give you my dialed in tone because I haven't even taken the VT out of its box yet.

That is a side effect of putting together a new rig almost from scratch. Right now, I have a VT and a BBM Pi both new in the box, and an EBS Unichorus and a BDDI. However, I have no preamp, amp, or speakers (except studio monitors).

One of the things I was concerned about was overdriving the Tone Hammer's input with the VT.

Another issue that I hadn't really thought of is the one of trying to balance what is going to my power amp with what is going to the house. I guess I could carry a pad with me and hope for the best.

[P-oddz]

Originally Posted by BigInThe80s

Oh, I can wait. I can't give you my dialed in tone because I haven't even taken the VT out of its box yet.

That is a side effect of putting together a new rig almost from scratch. Right now, I have a VT and a BBM Pi both new in the box, and an EBS Unichorus and a BDDI. However, I have no preamp, amp, or speakers (except studio monitors).

One of the things I was concerned about was overdriving the Tone Hammer's input with the VT.

Another issue that I hadn't really thought of is the one of trying to balance what is going to my power amp with what is going to the house. I guess I could carry a pad with me and hope for the best.

Two things here (and I guess I'm slightly confused a bit too, so my apologies)....

1. Isn't the BDDI a preamp as well? Are you planning on replacing it/not using it? Or are you just using it specifically as an OD?

2. As far as balancing signal to the house/power amp, there is a pre/post option on your line out - but isn't it the house responsibility at that point to balance your signal? Or are you saying you are concerned about level volume spikes with added gain stages?

Slightly confused....

[BigInThe80s]

Originally Posted by P-oddz

Two things here (and I guess I'm slightly confused a bit too, so my apologies)....

1. Isn't the BDDI a preamp as well? Are you planning on replacing it/not using it? Or are you just using it specifically as an OD?

2. As far as balancing signal to the house/power amp, there is a pre/post option on your line out - but isn't it the house responsibility at that point to balance your signal? Or are you saying you are concerned about level volume spikes with added gain stages?

Slightly confused....

Sorry, I am a confusing person. I talk too fast and I often type incoherently because my typing can't keep up with my brain.

To answer your questions:

1. The BDDI will go in a bag for backup/loaner use. I have not been overly fond of it as an OD. If it had more flexible EQ I might would try using it as a preamp only.

2. The is anecdotal only. I have tried to read all Talk Bass threads available on using the Tone Hammer as a pre. Something that has come up in a couple of threads is that, by the time the user adjusted the master to properly drive their power amp from the unbalanced, the balanced to the board was hotter than some FOH guys liked. That could have been user error by either the bassist or the FOH.

[bongomania]

Re: #2, that's a fact because the pedal has only one output volume control, and the output is the same from both 1/4" and XLR jacks. Normally a FOH guy should be able to hit the "pad" button on your mixer channel and all's well... but apparently many FOH guys don't know what that button is for.

[stflbn]

Another thing to keep in mind, and not sure how you plan to use the VT-bass, but...

Most people don't really rave about the VT-bass outside of using it as a SVT sounding preamp, and low to mid grit/hair on your tone unit. "Most or Many" here do not feel it's a great overdrive or heavier unit.

I've typically used them as a preamp and sometimes added a bit of grit or overdrive to my tone, but never 'personally' loved it in an aggressive tonal nature.


IMHO.


.

[BigInThe80s]

I got the VT Bass solely for SVT emulation duties. I like the sound samples I have heard - hopefully it won't disappoint.

[P-oddz]

Originally Posted by BigInThe80s

Sorry, I am a confusing person. I talk too fast and I often type incoherently because my typing can't keep up with my brain.

To answer your questions:

1. The BDDI will go in a bag for backup/loaner use. I have not been overly fond of it as an OD. If it had more flexible EQ I might would try using it as a preamp only.

2. The is anecdotal only. I have tried to read all Talk Bass threads available on using the Tone Hammer as a pre. Something that has come up in a couple of threads is that, by the time the user adjusted the master to properly drive their power amp from the unbalanced, the balanced to the board was hotter than some FOH guys liked. That could have been user error by either the bassist or the FOH.

No problem - I'm a confused guy

1. Got it.
2. I was actually unaware of this issue. I guess it's something to consider now at shows. I've only had the Tone Hammer a couple of weeks - long enough to play 2 shows with it (both shows being small enough that there was no house sound to worry about). But tomorrow night I'll have to consider it. Guess I'll see then, hey?

As for keeping the VT for SVT emulation, your purpose then I'm assuming for the TH was to really just get something to drive the power amp - not be too much color on your signal - use your VT when you want to achieve some Ampeg-gy goodness - and when you want to melt some faces you use the Big Muff?

Is that a correct understanding then?

[Aguilar/Dave B.]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Re: #2, that's a fact because the pedal has only one output volume control, and the output is the same from both 1/4" and XLR jacks. Normally a FOH guy should be able to hit the "pad" button on your mixer channel and all's well... but apparently many FOH guys don't know what that button is for.

True that there is only one output volume control on the Tone Hammer; but you can choose pre-eq on the balanced out (XLR) jack. Then they will have a different output level from the 1/4" output.

To add to Bongo's comments:

Mixers need to use the input trim section of the mixer channel!
It's there to adjust gain structure. And...hitting the pad is not a crime. IME, it's a lot better than cranking the gain on the input or the level of the fader. When raising these, there will almost certainly be a higher level of noise. We want to avoid that. That's the main reason for the Tone Hammer having plenty of output level.

DB

[BigInThe80s]

Originally Posted by P-oddz

As for keeping the VT for SVT emulation, your purpose then I'm assuming for the TH was to really just get something to drive the power amp - not be too much color on your signal - use your VT when you want to achieve some Ampeg-gy goodness - and when you want to melt some faces you use the Big Muff?

Is that a correct understanding then?

You got it!

[BigInThe80s]

Originally Posted by Aguilar/Dave B.

True that there is only one output volume control on the Tone Hammer; but you can choose pre-eq on the balanced out (XLR) jack. Then they will have a different output level from the 1/4" output.

I neglected to thank you for responding about your product, I appreciate it very much.

Originally Posted by Aguilar/Dave B.

To add to Bongo's comments:

Mixers need to use the input trim section of the mixer channel!
It's there to adjust gain structure. And...hitting the pad is not a crime. IME, it's a lot better than cranking the gain on the input or the level of the fader. When raising these, there will almost certainly be a higher level of noise. We want to avoid that. That's the main reason for the Tone Hammer having plenty of output level.

DB

In a perfect world, yes. However, there are all kinds of mixers out there. I occasionally volunteer to sit behind one (some older Peavey) that does not have a pad. I don't know what the bassist there is doing, but I have his gain (not the fader) *all* the way down and he is still turning the peak LED red on his channel.

As for me personally, I would like to be able to control the XLR level separate from the 1/4" and have it still be post EQ. For 99.9% of the folks out there it is probably a non issue.