Toys or Tools?

Snakeman1066 · #1 06-13-2008, 07:36 PM

While Im at it....(asking questions that is)

Not looking to open a huge Texas size can of worms, but...

what is the general take on items such as the BBE Sonic Maximizer and the Aphex 204 Aural Exciter Optical Big Bottom?
Since i see quite a lot of them in racks, and since the companies that produce them is still in business.....somebody must think they serve a purpose.

I'm putting together my first "official" Rack after 20+ years of playing and i'm wondering if one of these products, or something of the like is actually a useful needed tool or simply a toy/gizmo full of hype? is it worth taking up a space in my rack? or am i best served with the least amount of stuff in my signal path?

Yes i have read the websites, the specs, and the reviews, again actual science or Hype?

Thoughts? Discuss....

tplyons · #2 06-13-2008, 07:47 PM

They actually do something and a lot of people think it's worth it. Never did enough for me to add even more weight to my rack, but it's mostly just a weight and money issue. Otherwise I'd have one.

MysticMichael · #3 06-13-2008, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Snakeman1066

what is the general take on items such as the BBE Sonic Maximizer and the Aphex 204 Aural Exciter Optical Big Bottom? Since i see quite a lot of them in racks, and since the companies that produce them is still in business.....somebody must think they serve a purpose.

As with most issues on TalkBass, you're unlikely to get a "general take". I suspect that the chatter on this one will break down roughly according to the way most threads on music technology break down: with the purists/traditionalists arguing that all you need is a vintage P-bass, a set of flats, and a tube head with a 15" speaker cab...while the experimenters/progressives will be all for it.

As for myself, I can discern the value. I do believe that both these units have a positive effect on tone (depending on what that means to you), producing greater clarity, focus and definition than is likely to be the case without using one.

At the end of the day, it's all in the way it sounds. If you try one and can't perceive the effect, that must mean it's not for you. If you can hear the difference - and you like it - then you can follow up accordingly.

As with most things musical, let your ears be your guide. The ears supersede all else: friends' opinions, rock star endorsements, manufacturers' marketing hype. YMMV, etc. etc.

MM

Brad Maestas · #4 06-13-2008, 08:11 PM

I personally did not find those circuits to be of much use to me. I found it made things a bit cloudy and at some settings, endangered the speaker cone(s) with excessive excursion.

Some of my friends have used the Aphex 204 on mixes and I felt like it made the high end brittle. It could've just been the way they had it set but I didn't like what it was adding. I'd much rather use more subtle tools like the Waves plugins (for mixing/mastering).

Michael has a point though about how it can totally work for some people. These days I am into a minimalist signal path and right now I just plug straight into my head, no EQ or anything. I have experimented with bypassing the preamp section and just plugging straight into the power section but I find it a bit sterile. So I prefer the slightly thicker sound I get running through the preamp and flat EQ section.

Taylor Livingston · #5 06-13-2008, 08:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MysticMichael

the purists/traditionalists arguing that all you need is a vintage P-bass, a set of flats, and a tube head with a 15" speaker cab...while the experimenters/progressives will be all for it.

To twist things around a bit: I think it would be fair to call myself one of the more experimental/progressive folks here (just check out my bass) and I think exciters are junk. IMO, the whole phase correction thing is more marketing than reality. What you're getting in effect is a 2-band, shelving, bass and treble boost EQ. You can achieve the same results an exciter gives you with a flexible EQ.

Jazzdogg · #6 06-13-2008, 10:21 PM

This topic raises several interesting questions. What I'd like to know is this: is there a correlation between one's idealized bass sound and the perceived value of these kinds of devices?

For example, my ideal electric bass sound is informed by upright bass and old-school electric players, and might be described using words like punchy articulate, immediate, present, visceral, and balanced. I play fivers strung with TI jazz flats; I roll the treble all the way off on my bass to avoid fret clatter and finger noise; I drive Dr. Bass three-way cabinets with a B1500; and I don't slap or pop: for those of you who find value in these gizmos, does it sound like I'd appreciate one?

Or are they more likely to be appreciated by someone who slaps and pops using a jazz bass with single-coil p'ups, strung with rounds, through "hi-fi" components?

Taylor Livingston · #7 06-13-2008, 11:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

This topic raises several interesting questions. What I'd like to know is this: is there a correlation between one's idealized bass sound and the perceived value of these kinds of devices?

For example, my ideal electric bass sound is informed by upright bass and old-school electric players, and might be described using words like punchy articulate, immediate, present, visceral, and balanced. I play fivers strung with TI jazz flats; I roll the treble all the way off on my bass to avoid fret clatter and finger noise; I drive Dr. Bass three-way cabinets with a B1500; and I don't slap or pop: for those of you who find value in these gizmos, does it sound like I'd appreciate one?

Or are they more likely to be appreciated by someone who slaps and pops using a jazz bass with single-coil p'ups, strung with rounds, through "hi-fi" components?

What you'll get from an exciter is a boost of the very low and very high frequencies. I don't think it's right for you, but as I mentioned above, I don't think it's right for anyone. Although I'm also not sure why you'd play through a 3 way cab but roll off all treble on your bass. At that point, it would seem that all your tweeter would be reproducing is noise.

JimmyM · #8 06-13-2008, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazzdogg

This topic raises several interesting questions. What I'd like to know is this: is there a correlation between one's idealized bass sound and the perceived value of these kinds of devices?

For example, my ideal electric bass sound is informed by upright bass and old-school electric players, and might be described using words like punchy articulate, immediate, present, visceral, and balanced. I play fivers strung with TI jazz flats; I roll the treble all the way off on my bass to avoid fret clatter and finger noise; I drive Dr. Bass three-way cabinets with a B1500; and I don't slap or pop: for those of you who find value in these gizmos, does it sound like I'd appreciate one?

Or are they more likely to be appreciated by someone who slaps and pops using a jazz bass with single-coil p'ups, strung with rounds, through "hi-fi" components?

Here's what I've found in 33 years...the only truly necessary things for a bass player are a bass and amplification. Everything else is optional. If it's an option that you can use, it's a tool. If it's an option you can live without, it's a toy. For me, both those devices are toys as I'm perfectly capable of getting good sounds without them, and they offer me no benefit. For others, they may be important to their sound, so they're tools.

johnk_10 · #9 06-13-2008, 11:25 PM

I have both the rack mounted aphex 204 and their bass pedal version. i think that both of the units are very nice sounding if used properly( not overdone).

it enables you to dial in more subs if your amp's eq doesn't go that low and it will provide a super-fat low end. the pedal has a true bypass so you can easily a/b it to hear exactly what you're doing. they don't work like a parametric but do have a variable low and high enhance controls with a blend for each freq.

Eminor3rd · #10 06-14-2008, 12:34 AM

They're useful if you don't like the tone of your bass and amp. Personally, I need no additonal EQ, but that's just me.

RickenBoogie · #11 06-14-2008, 08:17 AM

I love the pure tone of both my rigs. They are, to me, the perfect combination of everything. I also enjoy a big pedalboard, and use a Sonic Stomp in that chain. The relult, to me, is pure perfection. When I switch it off, (to double check), I can hear a very noticeable difference, therefore, I leave it on always. My end result tone through the effects chain, is even better than bass straight to amp, which is pretty darn good by it's own self. So, for me, it's a tool, and a really good one. Oh, btw, fingerstyle with roundwound strings, occasional pick, very traditional approach to my playing style, a little more expirimental with the sound.

jz0h4d · #12 06-14-2008, 08:22 AM

Visirale · #13 06-14-2008, 09:04 AM

I have a BBE sonic maxmizer peal I got a while ago. I haven't used it much. Mostly because my signal goes through one anyway when I'm playing direct (the PA system has one). It does add a bit of clarity to your sound, but I don't use it ever, haha. I'm probably going to sell it soon.

I would not dismiss the technology as being "toy-like." In a PA system, these units can work wonders. When a bass player starts having a lot of rack gear to try to emulate the sound of a good PA system, that's when they become "toys" to me.

Jazzdogg · #14 06-14-2008, 11:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

What you'll get from an exciter is a boost of the very low and very high frequencies. I don't think it's right for you, but as I mentioned above, I don't think it's right for anyone. Although I'm also not sure why you'd play through a 3 way cab but roll off all treble on your bass. At that point, it would seem that all your tweeter would be reproducing is noise.

Good question: I can't stand finger noise, fret clatter, and other high frequency transients, but I like the effect of a subtle midrange presence peak at about 4kHz; I bought a 3-way cab for the two twelve-inch woofers and the 6.5 midrange driver - the tweeters are extraneous; they just came along for the ride.

Sounds like "exciters" might be just what the doctor ordered for those who prefer smiley-face EQ, but they're probably antithesis of the sound I'm after.

scotch · #15 06-14-2008, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by conical johnson

... IMO, the whole phase correction thing is more marketing than reality. What you're getting in effect is a 2-band, shelving, bass and treble boost EQ. You can achieve the same results an exciter gives you with a flexible EQ.

+1

I think there is a reason that the first couple of studio engineers that I worked with laughed at me when I pulled out my Sonic Maximizer! Even after one engineer duplicated my BBE tone by putting a smile on the studios rack graphic - I still thought he just "didn't get it". I didn't totally trust what I felt was their "elitist-purist" attitudes at the time.

Fast forward over ten years later and now I'm the one laughing! But, as always, if that's what your going for - then by all means use a BBE or Aphex!

There's no reason to avoid them if you want a scooped tone (thus imparting a form of "punch" and "clarity").

A few years back (maybe more like 6..), an Aphex rep gave me a "Big Bottom Exciter" to try out. I was about to just dismiss the whole venture, but I instead kept an open mind & used it for a series of shows. It certainly made a big impact on my tone, but I can't honestly say it did anything that the graphic eq on my amp couldn't. After giving the Aphex back to the rep, our front-of-house engineer bought me lunch! Coincidence?

johnk_10 · #16 06-14-2008, 12:21 PM

i have not been able to get the same effect with an eq, (either a high end graphic or a parametric). when i do use the aphex pedal (which is occasionally, depending on the room), i don't use the high end, but i do dial in a little bit of subs. I don't go for the smiley faced eq but rather the old school thump. i just like to have the option of my bass tone going thru the floor if i want it to. and this is with my SVT or my Sound City bass 150 or a Marshall Major (which has no real low end). My Sunn 2000s has a ton of low end without it.

Racermech · #17 06-14-2008, 12:54 PM

I find a sonic maximizer really useful at low volumes where the bass can really start to sound anemic. I unfortunately have to play a lot of times with my master volume floating around 1 and then a "toy" can really become useful for thickening things up. Once a cab really gets cooking and an amp starts pushing, good gear in my opinion would replace such devices.

My guitarist has the pedal version of the bbe sonic maximizer and he really digs it at low volumes as well. Makes his marshall rig sound thicker when he can't get it above speaking volumes. If he ever used it though when the thing was blaring, I think it might just rip the speakers apart.

tomvelsor · #18 06-14-2008, 10:04 PM

people still use it, so it must be doing something good.. i wouldent dream of using things like that myself though..

johnk_10 · #19 06-14-2008, 10:16 PM

i think that those who think of them as "toys" actually heard my bass tone live might change their mind about them.

astralis · #20 06-15-2008, 12:07 AM

IME they sound pretty decent on overall mixes. Like if you were to put one in your HT system or something, go for it. I most certainly wouldn't use one in my rack.
Knowing what it actually does, rather than seeing it as 'a super-magical process of biblical proportions!' helps a lot in your deciding.