True Bypass - just hype?

[kreider204]

I came across this article on the Tech21 site:

http://www.tech21nyc.com/tech_notes/...sFrameset.html

Thoughts?

[bongomania]

We've had this thread before, many times. The switching-quality deal goes like:

cheap buffer < true bypass < good buffer

Most cheap pedals have a cheaply made/designed buffer and their bypass sucks. Mechanical "true bypass" switching became popular because it totally eliminates that particular source of tone suck. But it comes with its own set of problems: switches that break easily, random loud pops when switching, big changes in impedance relationships when dis/engaging, loud click (annoying during quiet songs). A really well-designed/built buffer eliminates all of those problems, and additionally has no tone suck.

Unfortunately everyone has a different idea about what "really well designed/built" means, and it becomes especially fuzzy when bean-counters at a bigger company force designers to cut corners.

[RCCollins]

Spot-on.

Summary: True bypass was an improvement over hard mechanical bypass in the 70s. It's far from perfect and in a long effect chain you end up with the same old noise and tone suck to boot. Also, popping noise sucks. Buffered bypass was a subsequent advance, it's not the devil. Not all buffered bypasses are equally good but most every board can benefit from a nice buffered pedal or 2, especially at the front of the chain. Digital buffers may be a further advance. Listen to different devices and believe your ears.

[roflol]

Originally Posted by bongomania

We've had this thread before, many times. The switching-quality deal goes like:

cheap buffer < true bypass < good buffer

Most cheap pedals have a cheaply made/designed buffer and their bypass sucks. Mechanical "true bypass" switching became popular because it totally eliminates that particular source of tone suck. But it comes with its own set of problems: switches that break easily, random loud pops when switching, big changes in impedance relationships when dis/engaging, loud click (annoying during quiet songs). A really well-designed/built buffer eliminates all of those problems, and additionally has no tone suck.

Unfortunately everyone has a different idea about what "really well designed/built" means, and it becomes especially fuzzy when bean-counters at a bigger company force designers to cut corners.

you use the same basic switches for buffered or true bypass theres not some mystical thing about it, with a buffered bypass it just means its essentially always running through a buffer. It's fairly easy to stop true bypass pedals making a pop to.

The only thing you should take into consideration is if your driving a long chain or using massive amounts of cable so you need your signal buffering or not in which case a true bypass would be better as it means your original tone is being effected by less

[scotch]

A) Yes, I think True Bypass has gotten a little out of control. A lot of players who are concerned with TB probably don't really know what is going on with their own set-ups or why they need (or don't need) true bypass to begin with.

B) That Tech21 article leaves a lot of information out! No mention of modern, high quality 3pdt switches (given, the extra pole is for led operation, but the switches have been designed for audio - not sewing machines!), little regard for how many devices have poor buffered bypass (although that situation continues to improve), and they obviously are touting their own approach (not that objectivity is expected on a manufacturers own website!).

The bottom line is, you (as a player/end user) probably don't need to be too concerned with achieving "True Bypass" signal paths unless you are noticing signal degradation, noise, etc... from your set-up.

As a professional session player, who likes to have some effects on hand, I have benefited from TB systems. An important aspect of my job is keeping engineers & producers happy by ensuring a clean, solid signal to "tape". While there is certainly a lot of over-anxious engineers who's inflexibility regarding the bass-cable-di/pre approach isn't truly warranted, it is still important to put people at ease when working with them. Ensuring a clutter-free TB signal path has allowed me to have my pedals on hand & hooked up for quick access, but still appease squeamish engineers concerned about tone loss and noise.

Also, I have experienced signal degradation related to my pedal set-ups. TB by itself isn't always the answer, either! Proper, high quality signal buffering is at the heart of any truly effective complex-tb system!


While the Tech21 article has some good info, it's not the end-all to the TB vs. Buffered debate. The fact is both technologies can work hand-in-hand for the best results!

Be sure to read the Stinkfoot pages for some great objective info! http://www.stinkfoot.se/andreas/diy/diyhome.htm

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by roflol

you use the same basic switches for buffered or true bypass

False. You can use a 3PDT switch for switching a buffer system, but I have never once seen that done. You can use any type of switch, "theres not some mystical thing about it". But the fact is every single buffered switch I have ever seen was not the same Alpha or Fulltone 3PDT switch used in most "boutique" TBP pedals.

Further, buffered systems can easily take advantage of relays, optical switching, and noiseless switches- while it takes a great deal of effort to use those technologies in a TBP system, and you'll almost never see it done that way for TBP.

[roflol]

Originally Posted by bongomania

False. You can use a 3PDT switch for switching a buffer system, but I have never once seen that done. You can use any type of switch, "theres not some mystical thing about it". But the fact is every single buffered switch I have ever seen was not the same Alpha or Fulltone 3PDT switch used in most "boutique" TBP pedals.

Further, buffered systems can easily take advantage of relays, optical switching, and noiseless switches- while it takes a great deal of effort to use those technologies in a TBP system, and you'll almost never see it done that way for TBP.

/facepalm
i make pedals, a triple pull is a triple pull, the pop come from a change in current. Buffered switching DOES NOT use relays or optical switching(i'm not aware of optical devices being used for switching apart from in valve amps?)They use triple or double pulls the same as true bypass.
i'm sorry to burst your bubble but i'm guessing your one of the people willing to pay £150 for a ZVEX fuzz face clone because they say they use AWESOMELAZERTECHNOLOGYFORAWESOMEBYPASSTHATDOESN'TS UCKTONEANDAMAZINGTRANSISTORSANDCAPACITORSFROM1962W HICHWOULDHAVEDIMINISHEDFULLYBYNOW
sorry if that offends you i've had a **** day and you really need to know something about something before you can try and speak with authority about it. Also i don't think zvex pedals are bad i think he makes some good pedals i was just using it as an example for a high cost boutique brand.

ta, michael.

[RCCollins]

Originally Posted by roflol

/facepalm
i make pedals, a triple pull is a triple pull, the pop come from a change in current. Buffered switching DOES NOT use relays or optical switching(i'm not aware of optical devices being used for switching apart from in valve amps?)They use triple or double pulls the same as true bypass.
i'm sorry to burst your bubble but i'm guessing your one of the people willing to pay £150 for a ZVEX fuzz face clone because they say they use AWESOMELAZERTECHNOLOGYFORAWESOMEBYPASSTHATDOESN'TS UCKTONEANDAMAZINGTRANSISTORSANDCAPACITORSFROM1962W HICHWOULDHAVEDIMINISHEDFULLYBYNOW
sorry if that offends you i've had a **** day and you really need to know something about something before you can try and speak with authority about it. Also i don't think zvex pedals are bad i think he makes some good pedals i was just using it as an example for a high cost boutique brand.

ta, michael.

quoting now because you'll regret posting that. seriously.

[bongomania]

I can't remember the brand right now but there was an EU effects company using optical footswitches. All you need to run a buffered switch is a polar electronic circuit: high/low voltage, high/low impedance, Vcc/ground, etc. A polar circuit can be created and controlled in hundreds of different ways, having very little to do with a triple-throw mechanical switch. In the case of the optical switch, the foot-actuated "plunger" interrupted a light normally shining on an LDR, the resistance change of which caused a transistor to perform its switching action.

"Making pedals" just means you know how to make a few circuits and house them. It certainly does not imply any electronic education- in fact most of the pedal builders I know -and I know many- have no electronic education beyond what they picked up when copying Fuzz Faces. That's no knock on self-education, not at all, but saying you build pedals is exactly as impressive as saying you build model airplanes.

[seanm]

Originally Posted by bongomania

I can't remember the brand right now but there was an EU effects company using optical footswitches.

Voodoo labs uses an optical switch in the Sparkle Drive.

[Thangfish]

Originally Posted by RCCollins

Spot-on.

Summary: True bypass was an improvement over hard mechanical bypass in the 70s. -snip-

True bypass IS hard mechanical bypass.

edit:
I've never built a pedal.
But I have built a couple model planes as a kid.

[Thangfish]

Originally Posted by roflol

/facepalm
i make pedals, a triple pull is a triple pull,
-snip-

triple pull = triple-pole in the US?

Originally Posted by roflol

/facepalm
i make pedals, a triple pull is a triple pull, the pop come from a change in current. Buffered switching DOES NOT use relays or optical switching

Bongo didn't say that buffered switching USES relays or optical switching...

He said:

Originally Posted by bongomania

-snip-
buffered systems can easily take advantage of relays, optical switching, and noiseless switches- while it takes a great deal of effort to use those technologies in a TBP system
-snip-

There's quite a difference there.

[lowstar]

i don´t wanna join your fight here but i have a few questions.

who determined that "cheap buffer < true bypass < good buffer" ?
and who says that true bypass has to make random loud pops ? with proper pulldown resistors, they are dead silent.
and how are you gonna play that fuzz face if it comes after a pedal with buffered bypass (using a passive bass, of course. with an active, it won´t sound good anyway) ? not at all, if it is supposed to sound good.
and, in my own pedals that i´ve built so far (more than 90) i´ve never had a 3PDT switch break.
with commercial pedals, i repaired one with a broken 3PDT so far (ehx).

i agree that properly made buffered bypass systems have no tonesuck.
apart from the problem that some fx have with buffered signals, it comes down to taste. but in my book, you can´t say "properly made buffered bypass is better than true bypass", they are equal.

cheers,
lowstar

[Jaydin Nathan]

http://www.boomerangmusic.com/true%2...s%20facts.html

This guy seems to know exactly what he's talking about.

[sixgunner]

Originally Posted by TheJaydin

http://www.boomerangmusic.com/true%2...s%20facts.html

This guy seems to know exactly what he's talking about.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'd trust anything Pete Cornish has to say about the issue.

The "true bypass" hysteria has gone waaaaay overboard....I mean there are people who won't even consider a pedal unless it's TB.
Ha!.......and I've got a friend who has all of his pedals modded to TB and his guitar sounds like crap.

True bypass has it's place but I don't think most people have an understanding of exactly what place that is.

Besides, most of the classic tones we all know, love, and try to replicate were done without TB, and even on some of the crappiest,noisiest gear imaginable.


ETA:
Like someone else posted....."Before you worry about tone suck, you must first have tone."

[brianrost]

True bypass is not a new idea...the original Fuzz Face had it back in the 60s.

[jimmy rocket]

Originally Posted by lowstar

and who says that true bypass has to make random loud pops ? with proper pulldown resistors, they are dead silent.

I had some wicked popping with a BBS Opto-Stomp, so my solution was to solder 1 Megaohm resistors across the tip and sleeve of the input and output jacks. No more pop, no noticeable difference in tone. Are these the proper pulldown resistors of which you speak?

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by lowstar

who determined that "cheap buffer < true bypass < good buffer" ?

Just my opinion, and (I believe) the opinion of many people who have used the widest range of bypass systems.

Originally Posted by lowstar

who says that true bypass has to make random loud pops ? with proper pulldown resistors, they are dead silent.

Pulldown resistors do not always solve the pops. If they did, it would not even be up for discussion since resistors cost only pennies, and they are so easy to install. Pulldown resistors can help, but they are not always a cure.

Originally Posted by lowstar

how are you gonna play that fuzz face if it comes after a pedal with buffered bypass (using a passive bass, of course. with an active, it won´t sound good anyway) ?

Who said to put it after a pedal with buffered bypass? Not me.

Originally Posted by lowstar

in my own pedals that i´ve built so far (more than 90) i´ve never had a 3PDT switch break.

Dave Barber has built a bit more than 90 pedals, and he says one of the big reasons he ditched TBP was due to switches breaking. Also the problem usually comes up after extended heavy use- Alpha 3PDT switches can't take the type of constant use a touring guitarist gives them. It's not so much an issue for casual players.

But I will agree with you that it really boils down to personal taste, there is no "one right way" to do it, and there are exceptions to everything.

[RCCollins]

I like switchable buffer/TBP - it's not the budget option but it maximizes a pedal's flexibility

[niftydog]

Originally Posted by roflol

It's fairly easy to stop true bypass pedals making a pop to...
...the pop come from a change in current...
<SNIPPED RANT>

Please tell us, I'd love to know - been trying for several years now and nothing works reliably.

I think you'll find the pop is caused by sudden shifts in DC voltage levels that appear at input and output jacks due to leaky DC blocking capacitors. Though I'd love to hear your theory in detail.

Wow. Must've been a really bad day - still no excuse, really. Word in your ear: Bongo IS an authority around here - you should pay more attention.

Originally Posted by Thangfish

True bypass IS hard mechanical bypass.

This is just semantics confusing the issues - "hard mechanical" usually refers to the type of bypass found in old pedals where the input of the circuit was always connected, but the output jack was switched by a SPDT switch. This is not the "accepted" definition of TB.

Originally Posted by lowstar

and who says that true bypass has to make random loud pops ? with proper pulldown resistors, they are dead silent.

Not in my experience. The phenomenon is too dependent on external influences - hook your pedals up in a different order, use a different power supply, or insert a new pedal in the chain and the circuit conditions change and you might find the pop returns.

Even so, the mechanical click of the switch is too much noise, IMO.