What is the best phaser for Phil Lynott's tone in Dancing in the Moonlight?

[Ryan Mohr]

Phil used flanger and phaser on a lot of Thin Lizzy's songs, but you can hear that he is using a phaser in the intro to Dancing in the Moonlight. The phaser is very warm and fat sounding, and it compliments the P-Bass + flats very well IMO. Does anyone know what pedals he used, and what do you think would be the best pedal for that sound?

[Ryan Mohr]

Here's the video - http://youtube.com/watch?v=Unnh0T2Ftro

[Mark Olson]

Are you just curious about all these tones you ask about or are you actually considering achieving some of them yourself? Some of these tones come more from the rest of the gear than the specific pedal being used.

[Ryan Mohr]

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

Are you just curious about all these tones you ask about or are you actually considering achieving some of them yourself? Some of these tones come more from the rest of the gear than the specific pedal being used.

I am curious about these tones because once I get enought money these are the pedals I was to buy.

[Ryan Mohr]

bump

[Ryan Mohr]

anyone else?

[Mark Olson]

Ok, look. What I meant was you're not going to get these tones with the pedals alone. Depending on the rest of the gear you choose and the way you play, the pedals may not even get you close.

Then even if you could cop these tones, who's to say they'll fit just as well into the context of your band? Unless you're planning on covering all these songs with the same exact instrumentation, down to the same gear, you're going to be using these tones in a different context and a different mix. One tone might not cut through a different mix the same, or it might step on someone else's toes in a different mix. Then there's a good chance these tones won't sound nearly as cool taken out of context. Good bass tone is all about context, fitting into the mix just right and providing that solid foundation. I know that if I tried to cop Tim Commerford's distortion tone, for example, it would sound terrible in my band. No BS. The context matters that much.

I've spent a ton of money copping tones from my favorite bass players and they've all been of close to if not zero use to me in my band situations. Sure it's cool having those different tones if you're a hardcore hobbyist playing in your bedroom, but really, spending money trying to cop other people's tones is a waste of cash that would have been better spent investigating gear that might have been of practical use in YOUR band situation.

I know you insist on shopping for gear now, so this is a better way to do it: Have you spent as much time as you do thinking about pedals thinking about what amp and guitar you'd like to end up with? The amp and guitar are WAY more important for getting your tones than the pedals are. Don't just assume Ampeg, for example, is the best and will do everything you want it to. That may not be the case at all. You really need to try gear. Play every amp you can at the music store, and go to open mics and ask to play on other people's gear. Some people are even nice enough to let you use their axe. You need to know what sounds YOU can get out of different gear. The sounds you can get may be completely different than the sounds someone else can get. I bought all of my first "good" gear blind, and trust me, I don't use ANY of it anymore.

When you know what your rig sounds like, then you can proceed to thinking about how different pedals will sound through your rig, and moreover, in your band. They could sound very different through someone else's rig in someone else's band. Of course again it's best to try stuff out, but since that usually isn't a very available option with pedals, you have to do your best to make educated choices. Nowadays I only buy pedals that, from everything I can learn about them, I think will help me get MY sound, and that I see a practical use for in MY band's songs. I don't think I need to lecture you on the lack of creativity involved in trying to sound like every bassist on the face of the planet except yourself, but needless to say I find my money is much better spent these days, and I'm a lot more satisfied with my sound and my rig, because it's my sound. When you try to sound like someone else, you can never sound as good as them at it, and it's very frustrating and not really musically rewarding.

Think about it.

[Ryan Mohr]

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

Ok, look. What I meant was you're not going to get these tones with the pedals alone. Depending on the rest of the gear you choose and the way you play, the pedals may not even get you close.

Then even if you could cop these tones, who's to say they'll fit just as well into the context of your band? Unless you're planning on covering all these songs with the same exact instrumentation, down to the same gear, you're going to be using these tones in a different context and a different mix. One tone might not cut through a different mix the same, or it might step on someone else's toes in a different mix. Then there's a good chance these tones won't sound nearly as cool taken out of context. Good bass tone is all about context, fitting into the mix just right and providing that solid foundation. I know that if I tried to cop Tim Commerford's distortion tone, for example, it would sound terrible in my band. No BS. The context matters that much.

I've spent a ton of money copping tones from my favorite bass players and they've all been of close to if not zero use to me in my band situations. Sure it's cool having those different tones if you're a hardcore hobbyist playing in your bedroom, but really, spending money trying to cop other people's tones is a waste of cash that would have been better spent investigating gear that might have been of practical use in YOUR band situation.

I know you insist on shopping for gear now, so this is a better way to do it: Have you spent as much time as you do thinking about pedals thinking about what amp and guitar you'd like to end up with? The amp and guitar are WAY more important for getting your tones than the pedals are. Don't just assume Ampeg, for example, is the best and will do everything you want it to. That may not be the case at all. You really need to try gear. Play every amp you can at the music store, and go to open mics and ask to play on other people's gear. Some people are even nice enough to let you use their axe. You need to know what sounds YOU can get out of different gear. The sounds you can get may be completely different than the sounds someone else can get. I bought all of my first "good" gear blind, and trust me, I don't use ANY of it anymore.

When you know what your rig sounds like, then you can proceed to thinking about how different pedals will sound through your rig, and moreover, in your band. They could sound very different through someone else's rig in someone else's band. Of course again it's best to try stuff out, but since that usually isn't a very available option with pedals, you have to do your best to make educated choices. Nowadays I only buy pedals that, from everything I can learn about them, I think will help me get MY sound, and that I see a practical use for in MY band's songs. I don't think I need to lecture you on the lack of creativity involved in trying to sound like every bassist on the face of the planet except yourself, but needless to say I find my money is much better spent these days, and I'm a lot more satisfied with my sound and my rig, because it's my sound. When you try to sound like someone else, you can never sound as good as them at it, and it's very frustrating and not really musically rewarding.

Think about it.

First of all thanks for taking the time to put together a response like that. To answer a couple of you questions, the reason why I asked the initial question was not so I would simply know what he used and get a phaser that I would never use, but because I like the sound of phaser on bass, and I would like the final result to sound somewhat like Lynott's. I know he uses a Precision bass with Rotosound flats and a pick through an SVT stack. So, with my gear now I don't think it's possible to get THAT sound, but I think it may be possible to get close, which right now I am not. I bought a boss ph-2 super phaser off ebay, partially because i ilolize Mike Einziger, the guitarist of Incubus, who has two of these and uses it all the time. After spending several days with this pedal, I think I made a poor decision because IMO it doesn't sound good on bass.

About the band comment, I don't use effects a whole lot in my band at the current time, but I plan to incorporate them into my band more in the future. You brought up a good point because most of the time pedals that get great reviews on TalkBass, such as the Little Big Muff, can't cut though in a band context. I don't plan to cover any of these songs with my band, so getting the exact gear isn't necessary, and it probably wouldn't be necessary if we were either. I figure if I am going to but a phaser, I want it to sound close to Phil Lynott's tone.

About the amps comment, I have spent equally as much time thinking about what kind of amp I would like. I have concluded that I want a hybrid head because the tone that I want in my head is warm and fat, but I know I don't want to lug around a tube head. After going to guitar center, I know I am not a GK person because they are too agressive sounding, and I know I am not a MarkBass person because they are to hi-fi sounding. I have pretty much narrowed it down to Genz Bez Shuttle 6.0, Ashdown ABM 500 EVO II, Mesa/Boogie Walkabout, or Eden WT550. I am also pretty much sold on Avatar cabs because of the great reviews, but they can be a little agressive, so my ideal cabs would be Aguilar due to there smoothness and warmth.

All this will help create my sound as you said, and it may not sound the same as an SVT with effects, but I don't need his tone exactly. So going back to the OP, I was wondering if he used a typical 4-stage phaser, such as the Phase 90 or Small Stone, or would I have to invest in a more expensive analog phaser to get that sound.

[PunkerTrav]

Subscribed.

[Darkstrike]

I heard it was a flanger he used.

[Ryan Mohr]

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

I heard it was a flanger he used.

To my ears it sounds like a phaser, but a bunch of people say it's a flanger too.

[Darkstrike]

Originally Posted by AqueousView11

To my ears it sounds like a phaser, but a bunch of people say it's a flanger too.

I have a feature on him in a mag somwhere, I'll check to see if that mentions it.

[Mark Olson]

To get a phaser sound close to that, I think you'd need the P Bass (most of all) with the Roto Flats along with the right head and of course a pick, but if you had all that stuff I don't think it would matter so much what phaser you chose. There are a lot of vintage style phasers that would do. I think you'd be fine with a phase 90, or a phase 100, for example, even though the phase 90 is four stage and the phase 100 is ten stage.

Like I can get "my sound" using a lot of different overdrive pedals, with the minor variations that come from the different pedals. I'd say 90% of my tone is in how I play and the rest of my gear, going through all these pedals is just to find what's best for me for that extra 10%. My musical friends can recognize my tone on record regardless of whatever boxes of mine I felt like using that day. It's easy and fun for us to get caught up in getting the right effect to get a certain sound, but I think it's a relatively minor thing compared to getting the right other gear and playing right.

What kind of guitar are you thinking about ending up with? For the Thin Lizzy tone you NEED a P Bass with flats, and for the Audioslave tone you NEED a Jazz Bass with rounds, for example, so you can see where these different tonal aspirations can work against eachother. You could buy different basses, but that seems a pretty extreme measure just to ballpark a couple tones if your budget is limited.

Anyway, just don't be disappointed when you start getting this gear if you find with your rig and playing, the pedals don't get as close to whatever you're trying to emulate as you'd like. Or if the tones aren't as useful in your situation as you dreamed they would be. The best you can really do is buy what looks good and just see what tones you can get and try them in your band situation to see how they fit.

Oh, and on a side note I'd be shopping for cabinets without horns if you plan on using overdrive/distortion/fuzz effects. You can just turn the horns off on the cabs but I don't think that turns off the crossover (maybe someone who knows more than me can chime in). That's just a minor and anal point; I'd rather my whole signal be routed to my speakers (as opposed to the unused horn) even if the speakers aren't going to reproduce those high frequencies. And for what it's worth I'd go with an Ashdown or Mesa amp over the others, for the sounds I like and the way I like amps to work with my effects.

[bongomania]

Originally Posted by AqueousView11

I was wondering if he used a typical 4-stage phaser, such as the Phase 90 or Small Stone, or would I have to invest in a more expensive analog phaser to get that sound.

I may have misunderstood what you meant there, but the Phase 90 and Small Stone are analog. Also, there were only a few commonly-available phasers available back when Lynott was recording those hits, so the odds are it was a pedal that today would be considered inexpensive. Of course it could have been a Mutron phaser which would be expensive today.

[bongomania]

Also, FWIW it sounded more like a phaser to me than a flanger. I've heard tracks from them that sounded like flanger on the bass, but more often it sounded to me like phaser.

[Ryan Mohr]

Originally Posted by bongomania

I may have misunderstood what you meant there, but the Phase 90 and Small Stone are analog. Also, there were only a few commonly-available phasers available back when Lynott was recording those hits, so the odds are it was a pedal that today would be considered inexpensive. Of course it could have been a Mutron phaser which would be expensive today.

Yep you misunderstood me, I know they are analog, I was just saying would I have to invest in anything more expensive, probably analog because of the warmth of the phaser, for this. Thanks for making that clear though.

[John Wentzien]

That was probably an MXR Phaser..

[Ryan Mohr]

Originally Posted by Mark Olson

To get a phaser sound close to that, I think you'd need the P Bass (most of all) with the Roto Flats along with the right head and of course a pick, but if you had all that stuff I don't think it would matter so much what phaser you chose. There are a lot of vintage style phasers that would do. I think you'd be fine with a phase 90, or a phase 100, for example, even though the phase 90 is four stage and the phase 100 is ten stage.

Like I can get "my sound" using a lot of different overdrive pedals, with the minor variations that come from the different pedals. I'd say 90% of my tone is in how I play and the rest of my gear, going through all these pedals is just to find what's best for me for that extra 10%. My musical friends can recognize my tone on record regardless of whatever boxes of mine I felt like using that day. It's easy and fun for us to get caught up in getting the right effect to get a certain sound, but I think it's a relatively minor thing compared to getting the right other gear and playing right.

What kind of guitar are you thinking about ending up with? For the Thin Lizzy tone you NEED a P Bass with flats, and for the Audioslave tone you NEED a Jazz Bass with rounds, for example, so you can see where these different tonal aspirations can work against eachother. You could buy different basses, but that seems a pretty extreme measure just to ballpark a couple tones if your budget is limited.

Anyway, just don't be disappointed when you start getting this gear if you find with your rig and playing, the pedals don't get as close to whatever you're trying to emulate as you'd like. Or if the tones aren't as useful in your situation as you dreamed they would be. The best you can really do is buy what looks good and just see what tones you can get and try them in your band situation to see how they fit.

Oh, and on a side note I'd be shopping for cabinets without horns if you plan on using overdrive/distortion/fuzz effects. You can just turn the horns off on the cabs but I don't think that turns off the crossover (maybe someone who knows more than me can chime in). That's just a minor and anal point; I'd rather my whole signal be routed to my speakers (as opposed to the unused horn) even if the speakers aren't going to reproduce those high frequencies. And for what it's worth I'd go with an Ashdown or Mesa amp over the others, for the sounds I like and the way I like amps to work with my effects.

I think the Phase 90 would work fine, as would a Small Stone.
Also, I will be buying a Jazz Bass pretty soon, and I intend to put some flats on my P Bass, so I will have a pretty wide range of tones covered. Thanks for mentioning that a tweeterless cab would be different than a cab with the tweeter turned down, as i was planning on just turning down the tweeter. I am leaning towards the Ashdown because it is a decent amount cheaper than the Mesa. Thanks for the input agan.

[Darkstrike]

Just remembered, he also used a chorus at times, so that could be mixed in during that song too.

[Ryan Mohr]

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

Just remembered, he also used a chorus at times, so that could be mixed in during that song too.

Thanks that's helpful. Did you find that article?