Who knows about MIDI samplers?

WarriorJoe7 · #1 05-11-2008, 03:31 AM

OK so I don't know if this goes here mods but it's the closest thing I can think of.

I need a midi sampler but I don't know anything about them such as cost and features so I'd figure if anyone knows give me a couple of makes/models to research on.

Here is my purpose for it:

I have a Peavey Midibase. I am using it with a relatively awful Peavey Spectrum Bass Synth. The bass sound is not really that great by itself however if I do octave down it sound pretty freaking awesome as a fantastic tracking sub octave. The problem comes when I do octave up (simulate an 8 string.) The synth unit sounds ok but still fairly cheesy.

So to solve the problem I want to get a sampler that can be triggered by Midi. Then I would sample a bass guitar at each note an octave up and assign those samples midi values. Then when I play my midibase the octave up sound will actually be a sampled bass and should sound pretty damn good. (I also want to experiment with other intervals up and down such as 5th , 6th, 4th, m3rd, M3rd, 9th, 11th etc.)

I also want to do a few other experiments with the sampler and midi so I'd want something fairly flexible midiwise with a decent sampling capability (CD quality wav 44.1 KHz sampling rate)

Let me know what you guys think. I don't have a price range though I don't want it to be super expensive.

Joe

WarriorJoe7 · #2 05-11-2008, 03:36 AM

Also I might as well throw this out there. I want to have a midi foot controller that will allow me to change the up interval of the midi note (Example: from 3rd to 5th or octave)

Can this be done?

Also if I wanted to do every note an octave up and down plus 2 octave up and 2 octave down I'd need 26 switches. Could I do this with a keyboard?

WarriorJoe7 · #3 05-11-2008, 09:39 AM

Anyone? or pehaps this can go in another section of TB? If so let me know? or is there a midi forum somewhere?

bongomania · #4 05-11-2008, 09:45 AM

What you're describing is sometimes called "multi-sampling", where a single patch/sound is actually a large number of different samples grouped together and assigned different note and velocity values. It's not a big deal for software programmers to assemble multi-samples and encode them into pre-packaged sound banks, but a lot of the time hardware samplers are not provided/implemented with the same programming tools for the end user (consumer). That means it can be tricky finding a hardware sampler at low cost which allows that type of programming. The most economical options would be a software-based system (on your computer) with an external compact keyboard, or an older keyboard sampler with advanced programming capabilities.

Everything you described can be done, but it's also a lot of programming, and not easy stuff.

Swimming Bird · #5 05-11-2008, 09:59 AM

I agree, this is not an easy or cheap solution to your problems. Easier would be to put the samples in a laptop sample program and trigger it via a midi-to-usb interface.

I suppose getting an octave pedal or playing chords is not in the conversation?

WarriorJoe7 · #6 05-11-2008, 10:14 AM

An octave can only go octave up. I want flexibiblity as far as interval. Yeah I can play some chords but this will open it up. There are some intervals that can't be played via regular chord techniques. (Not to mention I am not great at chording but that will improve over time.) Also I would like to be able to control the volume of the octave up sound (and all the other intervals too.) I would also like to use other sounds than bass for octave up. So i am going for a type of flexibility you can't find in an octave pedal or by playing chords.

WarriorJoe7 · #7 05-11-2008, 10:16 AM

I am an information studies major so programming should not be a huge problem for me. I can figure out technology that confounds everyone else (not that I like doing this but if it has to be done.)

Thanks for the recommendations for using a software sampler. I think I would need to get a really low latency laptop setup for this to work correctly but tell me if I am wrong.

Any suggestions on midid software that might do this?

megadan · #8 05-11-2008, 10:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarriorJoe7

An octave can only go octave up..

Have you thought about the EH HOG?
It's a pretty amazing piece of kit. It does
1 octaves down · 1 octave + a perfect fifth
· 2 octaves down · 2 octaves up
· Original pitch · 2 octaves up + a major third
· One Fifth up · 3 octaves up
· 1 octave up · 4 octaves up

Plus foot control for blending, like you asked for, and a pile of other things.

Swimming Bird · #9 05-11-2008, 10:59 AM

Check out the Boss PS-5, Digitech Whammy IV and/or EHX HOG. There are more, but a pitch-shifter is a far better option in terms of latency, options, price, time and possibly tone. Not to mention what happens to your samples if you get a little out of tune. It's far easier to reach down and turn a dial then to change the program on your laptop when you want to switch from fifths to thirds.

I wasn't aware library sciences included programming courses. If you don't know how to program already, I wouldn't suggest starting with midi. The companies that make the instrument interfaces don't tell you what language they program in, so +1 to everything Bongo has already said. If you really want to go that route, learn Max/MSP which already has some fantastic open-source controller programs floating about (see the Monome website for example).

Otherwise, use Ableton Live and brute force the samples -- one sample trigger to one note. Again, even this is far more trouble than it's worth.

By the way, does your Peavey output in midi or 13-pin hex (or both)?

Dirk Diggler · #10 05-11-2008, 03:18 PM

If you want cheap and flexible hardware, grab an Akai S5000 or S6000. Considering what I paid for mine new, it's robbery how cheap the hardware is going for now.
Now the software route is a completely different beast. One of the best/usable soft samplers is Native Instruments Kontakt. Very flexible and not too bad to program from scratch.
Lot's of great sample libraries out there for both or you can do what I did and made my own samples. Including sampling my own Warrguitar to play it's sounds on my Ztar or any of the Axon-abled axes I play.
Good luck and let me know how it goes.
Dirk

WarriorJoe7 · #11 05-11-2008, 03:29 PM

I always wanted a EHX Hog... but I still find that all of these have their limitations, AND I am keeping the midi bass so I might as well get something really flexible. I haven't heard a pitch shifter that sounds as good as the peavey synth I am using even though it sounds a little cheesy when you are going up.

The Peavey has an 8 pin output which goes to a special box which then goes to regular midi cable.

Off topic, but my major is Information studies. I have taken HTML, Javascript, and Java so far, and I have been the ace of those classes. Next on the list is either visual basic or a mix of COBOL and Java, and maybe flash. My concentration will be on databases, so I have SQL in the fall. I will be building a database prototype this summer. It is true that library sciences are a part of our degree program but it's for grad students. Their are 4 other totally library unrelated majors for grads. So as far as programming, trust me I can do it.

I'll have to try Ableton Live. I already planned to use soundforge to record and normalize the samples. I just need low latency for actual playback.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Swimming Bird

Check out the Boss PS-5, Digitech Whammy IV and/or EHX HOG. There are more, but a pitch-shifter is a far better option in terms of latency, options, price, time and possibly tone. Not to mention what happens to your samples if you get a little out of tune. It's far easier to reach down and turn a dial then to change the program on your laptop when you want to switch from fifths to thirds.

I wasn't aware library sciences included programming courses. If you don't know how to program already, I wouldn't suggest starting with midi. The companies that make the instrument interfaces don't tell you what language they program in, so +1 to everything Bongo has already said. If you really want to go that route, learn Max/MSP which already has some fantastic open-source controller programs floating about (see the Monome website for example).

Otherwise, use Ableton Live and brute force the samples -- one sample trigger to one note. Again, even this is far more trouble than it's worth.

By the way, does your Peavey output in midi or 13-pin hex (or both)?

WarriorJoe7 · #12 05-11-2008, 03:36 PM

Thanks ALOT Dirk. It sounds like you are doing something similiar to what I want to do. I will look into that hardware.

I should have asked my drummer friend a few years ago but he was incredible and he played the V-drums at church. He brought his own sampled sounds. He pretty much looked for good drum samples over a period of a few years and found the absolute best that he could. Then he used the midi triggering of the V-drums with the samples that he had and he just sounded killer. I never asked him what sampler he was using but I should have.

Also the hardware doesn't necessarily have to record the sounds itself. I just want to be able to upload sounds that I recorded or got through other means.

Dirk I would LOVE to hear some samples.

WarriorJoe7 · #13 05-11-2008, 03:49 PM

So it looks like you can get AKAI S5000s for under $300 with some pateince or an S6000 for about double that. Looks like I will go this route sometime later this year. Meanwhile I will improve my playing on the midibase. Thanks, Joe

NoHitWonder · #14 05-11-2008, 07:59 PM

Have you tried any other Synth Modules with your MidiBass?

I have a Alesis NanoBass that has decent bass sounds in it.
I think it has 256 presets. They can be found on ebay sometimes for $50-$75.

I use mine with a 25 key Midi Controller now but I have used it in the past with a Roland GI-10. The Roland GI-10 was an early model pitch to MIDI converter that could be used with any instrument (it has a 1/4" jack input). The tracking is not really that fast on the GI-10.

I run my NanoBass through an Aphex AcousticXciter Pedal to thicken up the sound and make it sound more "alive" (but then I run my basses through a BassXciter for the same reason).

SFjonstarr · #15 05-11-2008, 09:54 PM

The s6000 is a pretty powerful beast once you understand how it works. I think that's the one squarepusher used for a long time for all his drum programming. You might be better off just getting a more powerful synth brain. If you get a better synth you can transpose the notes whereever you need them to be for every patch. And you wouldn't need to replace your dry bass sound with samples, unless that's the kind of sound you're trying for. I had a Studio Electronics Se-1x for a couple of years and you could make the occillator sound any interval away from the incoming Midi note on messages. And you can save these transpositions for every individual patch separatly if need be.

WarriorJoe7 · #16 05-11-2008, 09:56 PM

Thx nohit. I figured I would get around to trying other synth units also. There has got to be some decent bass synths by now but I'd still rather record my own or have a setup where I can import sounds from other places.

WarriorJoe7 · #17 05-11-2008, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SFjonstarr

The s6000 is a pretty powerful beast once you understand how it works. I think that's the one squarepusher used for a long time for all his drum programming. You might be better off just getting a more powerful synth brain. If you get a better synth you can transpose the notes whereever you need them to be for every patch. And you wouldn't need to replace your dry bass sound with samples, unless that's the kind of sound you're trying for. I had a Studio Electronics Se-1x for a couple of years and you could make the occillator sound any interval away from the incoming Midi note on messages. And you can save these transpositions for every individual patch separatly if need be.

The very cool thing about the midi bass is that it supplies both the dry bass signal and the midi signal out of the 8 pin connector (or if you dont want midi there is a 1/4 jack that can be used by itself so that its a normal bass.) Once the 8 pin goes to the box that converts it to midi, there is the regular midi out and also a 1/4 out for dry bass.

What I end up doing is putting the dry bass out to my amps regular input then the midi out goes to the synth whose 1/4 inch goes into my effects return on the back of the amp. It works perfectly but I have to remember that my gain and EQ only effect the dry bass signal and the master volume affects both.

I realized that those AKAIs came out 10 years ago. Thats probably the reason the prices are down. There has got to be newer models that do even mre but they are probably also out of my price range. Honestly doing the $600 might be a bit much for me. I need to investigate the differences between the S5000 and S6000

kerryg · #18 06-01-2008, 07:27 PM

I'm another Peavey MidiBase user. I trigger softsynths from my gear here; haven't used it live for a long time. I just posted a MidiBase clip here on another thread, but it might be time for a MidiBase club.

The AKAI is a great sampler, score a good bargain and it'll be a killer piece of gear for you. We used them in film and TV a lot.

MIDI & Bass

D.Don · #19 06-01-2008, 07:34 PM

EMU e6400 and e4x can be found for a cpl of hundred dollars on the bay, more sampler than that, you will hardly ever need. Those machines where workhorses of the future not that many years ago and costed an arm and two legs but where completely worth it.

Go get one.

If you have questions regarding samplers, feel free to pm me, been a keyboard player for about 20 years...

D.Don

Ramsy · #20 06-01-2008, 07:43 PM

There's a lot of cheap hardware samplers on eBay these days because everyone is going for software.

But I'd have to say after gigging as a keyboard player for many years you can't beat a hardware sampler. I ran an Akai S3000 for years without so much as the tiniest problem. And it got some fairly serious road abuse.

I've now gone back to bass and I'm still using the same sampler hooked up to a Roland GK setup, giving me much the same rig as your Midibase. And I'm having so much fun with it.
My current favourite is to sample the rythm guitar chords and trigger them from the bass. Making the guitard obsolete.
I reccomend it to anyone just for the pleasure of seeing the other band members jaws fall off when they realise you're replacing them with a couple of pedals and a rack.