Why I got rid of my SansAmp and lazy production techniques!

[SeanSaliSE]

Here's a story of a young bass player, who at that time was about 21 years of age. Fresh out of college with a useless diploma of arts and science, he's been slappin' da bass for a number of years but had never found a group of musicians to satisfy his need to play in a band. This strapping young bass player owned an '02 MM stingray and an SVT-3 Pro with a 410HLF cab.

Blah blah blah craigslist.

Blah blah blah join a band.

Blah blah blah write some songs.

And then, when it came time to record these songs (at a local studio) this young lad was exposed to the wonders of the producer's SansAmp protools plugin. Needless to say, this young but inexperienced bassist was astounded at how nice the SansAmp could emulate the natural distortion of overdriven tubes and all that crap. Following the first recording session, he went out and bought a PBDDI and used it for years following.

The song recorded were well recieved in the local music scene when they were posed on myspace , even though the producer literally ended up mixing the bass mids almost completely out of every track. http://www.myspace.com/severfuse

Then egos got in the way and the band broke up cause the guitarist and vocalist were a bunch of talentless hacks that only managed to write cliche lyrics (if they even managed to make any sense) and guitar riffs that 3 year-olds could play. Thus a new band was born from the ashes!

Blah blah blah new band.

Blah blah blah new songs.

Then when it came time to record new songs, the young bassist decided to upgrade his rig. He ditched the muddyness of the SVT-3 and got a Mesa/Boogie BigBlock 750 with a Powerhouse 1200 (4x10 + 1x15 combo) cabinet. He sold his Mm 'ray and accumulated some Spector CRFMs and replaced the internal tonepump with EMG pres, and also got a Warwick Thumb BO. Yet the SansAmp stayed.

3 songs were recorded and very well recieved on places such as youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1XBT3wIocwc.

Blah blah blah independent record deal.

Blah blah blah full length album to be recorded.

The excited young bass player (who by then was 24) recorded all of his tracks with a SansAmp RBI in the FX loop of his Mesa/Boogie BigBlock 750 that had it's wet signal going into the board, and a mic on his speaker cabinet. When the bass tracks were finally recorded and sent out to be mixed by a known producer. All the time that was spent seemed to be a waste as it was learned that the miked tracks were scrapped and the already SansAmped DI signal was run through another SansAmp.

With no explanation as to why this was done and nothing the poor young bass player could do, he got very upset and depressed. "Why is it so much to ask to only be heard?", the young bass player thought to himself. "Mike Fraser didn't double-SansAmp the song that he mixed". http://www.myspace.com/discoverthemusic (click on "No One Else - Stealing Eden)

A SansAmp on it's own for an expensive recording? Is it really okay to waste such robust tracks in favor of a quick and easy solution? And then it went off like a lightbulb over his head. This young bass player should know by now that SansAmps on thier own tend to dampen the mids of anything going through it (even with the midrange knob cranked to full), and that he was falsely led to believe that with such a great amp, he still needed a SansAmp!

"That does it!" The bass player yelled. I'm going to get rid of this thing that has caused me so much heartache and it will never enter my signal chain ever again!

The young bassist now owns a Titan V12 and to this day, swears against SansAmps for recording and live applications.

The end.


Okay if you guys actually managed to read all of that (apologies btw), then you'll have noticed the young bassist is me. It took me years, but in the end the experience I got from all of this * has been worth it. My new rule #1 that I had to figure out for myself and got no help with, is that you're doing yourself and injustice by using an additional solid state preamp when you have a quality head at your disposal, and ESPECIALLY one with a tube preamp. The Titan V12 is an amp that sounds so amazing I can't express enough. Everyone who has heard it (since ditching the SansAmp) has said it's unreal, amazing, rich, powerful, HUGE, etc. I tend to use lots of effects that I also noticed were hugely dampened by the SansAmp, and now they shine through much more noticably, as do my mids. Now I'm not buried by layers of guitar when the band rehearses.

The only way I would use a SansAmp again is if i didn't have an amp and needed to plug into the PA, or if I was playing a really really REALLY poor amp. From what I've had to deal with in the past I'm completely turned off from using them except in an emergency or last resort scenario. Besides, the DI on my V12 is better sounding than anything I have ever used so far.

So now I beg the rest of talkbass, why did YOU ditch your SansAmp? Why do you still use one?

[dougjwray]

Thanks-- now I can forget about ever buying one.

[DrewGK]

i ditched mine for the same reason.

sucked mids

and made all my basses sound the same.





got a VT bass
mid knob
mmmmmmmm

[j_nition]

"Why do you still use one?"

Because I dont own a Mesa v12

Even with my New GK/Aguilar rig I'm still finding my PBDDI useful for some things.
....and some day in a pinch I know I'll need it to drop straight into the house without my gear and I'll not feel so bad.

[Photobassist]

I had the programmable Sansamp years ago and sold it almost as fast as I bought it. Then just recently, I purchased the BDDI and I'll have to admit.... it has become a permanent fixture in my rig. I adjust my mids through my bass and amp and use the BDDI sparingly. I recorded an entire album with my band using only an Aguilar TLC, BDDI, and bass and have no complaints whatsoever. Everyone has "their" sound and the Sansamp is obviously not part of yours. Glad to hear you did find what you were looking for though with the V12.

[EKinPNW]

Mine was stolen last year. I kind of had a love/hate relationship with it. I loved how easy it was to dial in the "standard" rock tone, but alway struggled with the mid-scoopiness, so to speak. I have since picked up a Mesa Walkabout combo for lower volume situations, and a Mesa M9 Carbine. Love my Mesa stuff! I really like the Stealing Eden tracks, btw.

[Kwin Smith]

The middle part of my story is very different than yours.

Mine did start with a sansamp and ended with a Titan v12, though.

[SeanSaliSE]

The V12 is just the big brother of the BB750. It's got the same stuff only more power, and 2 channels with individual overdrives. However, I believe the sound out of the V12 is clearer than he 750, probably due to headroom.

[SeanSaliSE]

Originally Posted by EKinPNW

Mine was stolen last year. I kind of had a love/hate relationship with it. I loved how easy it was to dial in the "standard" rock tone, but alway struggled with the mid-scoopiness, so to speak. I have since picked up a Mesa Walkabout combo for lower volume situations, and a Mesa M9 Carbine. Love my Mesa stuff! I really like the Stealing Eden tracks, btw.

Thanks for listening to the tracks! Love/hate really is a good way to sum up the SansAmp as it is "notoriously easy to get a good generic rock tone." This can be both a good and a bad thing.

[adube810]

i like my bddi as a tube emulated light ovedrive or as a quick eq change to something that i like mid scooped llike a quick slap tone or to go into something super bassy with rolled off highs for dub or reggae.also does really well acting as a preamp if i dont have an amp and have to play with a power amp.

its not a perfect pedal but it does several things very well

[bassist4dalord]

I had something similar (used loosely); the Hartke VXL Bass Attack. Decent pedal, but in the end just kind of lost interest in it. The tone on that thing was ok; it too, like the SansAmp, scooped my tone like nothin' else. Bass and treble all the way, no mid knob. Eventually sold it to a guy here on TB.

I rarely play with an amp on stage, as I'm playing almost always in venues where there's a good PA. I think I might like a nice, clean DI to bring along, but I don't know.

Long story short: I like a clean signal sent to the board. When I start EQing, and so does the soundman, we get poo.

[SeanSaliSE]

Originally Posted by bassist4dalord

I had something similar (used loosely); the Hartke VXL Bass Attack. Decent pedal, but in the end just kind of lost interest in it. The tone on that thing was ok; it too, like the SansAmp, scooped my tone like nothin' else. Bass and treble all the way, no mid knob. Eventually sold it to a guy here on TB.

I rarely play with an amp on stage, as I'm playing almost always in venues where there's a good PA. I think I might like a nice, clean DI to bring along, but I don't know.

Long story short: I like a clean signal sent to the board. When I start EQing, and so does the soundman, we get poo.

I will never argue with the importance of a quality DI. But if it was JUST DI and no amp, I would personally look into Radial Engineering. Their stuff is nice.

[gillento]

All this seems a bit too much of a "good thing":
Sansamp through a miked amp, then re-sansamped again

My studio experience with DIs, Sansamps amd miked amps tells me that this is definetely overkill.

I'd use a clean DI + dirty amp (sansamped or not)
or a clean DI + dirty Sansamp

If anything should be re-amped or "re-sansamped" at all, it would be the clean DI signal.

As for the Sansamp (especially the Paradriver) having not enough mids, is a myth to me.

Another thing to explore is the idea/fact that in the studio bass and treble boost on the bass guitar preamp is generally not a good idea (EMG are sounding very clean to start with).

[onosson]

I find it is very easy to get a good sound with a BDDI as long as you don't go too extreme with the dials. I have an old BDDI from about '96, I'm not sure how close its sound is to later models.

I usually set the Level at 12:00, Blend and Drive both at about 8:00 or 9:00. Treble and Bass I will generally adjust depending on the bass, but generally around the 12:00 position and either up or down from there. The key thing to remember is that you can CUT the bass, which will in turn expose more of the bass' natural mids. A higher Blend will reduce mids too, which is why I keep it fairly low.

Of course, if you're going for a more effected sound you would set them differently - but these settings work for me. They give me my bass tone, but just a little bigger.

[JimmyM]

all this talk of lazy production is crap. if it gets a good sound, it doesn't matter what you use, and it's no more lazy than turning a tone knob. also, i used to own a 3 pro, and if it ever sounds muddy, i think it's more the operator's doing than the amp's doing. hey, congratulations that you now have an amp you like, but i never once had a problem getting a non-muddy sound with my 3 pro.

i'm left really bewildered...i'm just not getting the point here...should we all do things your way? is it wrong to use sansamp stuff if you like it? should we only tell stories about ourselves in 3rd person?

[Mark Olson]

I've owned the sansamps, but I've never gigged or recorded with any of them because I think they sound awful. But it's all some can afford to sound like, or are willing to carry, or they like the sound for some reason or another (sometimes because they've never experienced having a better sound at their fingertips, and I like to think sometimes because they just don't have an ear for decent tone). Whatever the reason those overpriced little boxes are very popular.

I have a theory about needing all this processing garbage to like your tone (which isn't everybody, obviously). I use a two knob amp, volume and tone, passive bass straight in except for a handful of true bypass effects. There's nothing on my dead simple amp to mess up my tone. Because that's what it'd do for me, mess it up. If you've got a good tone coming from your fingers and your guitar, all these knobs and junk boxes (preamp/sound shaping pedals) do is mess up your good sound. But if you play like crap and it sounds like crap, you need to get a bunch of processing garbage in an effort to make it sound better.

Also if you have a junk amp that's mucking up your sound, you're liable to muck it up more with some other junk in an effort to make it sound not as mucked up. You can have an amp with a lot of knobs, but most of those knobs, if you turn them too far one way or the other, they make the sound suck. Just a bunch of suck knobs. I'd rather have two knobs and a sound that doesn't suck than 12 knobs that I have to dial out the suck on each of.

So there's no other way for me than mic'ing up my Emperor cab. There's something about the way that a dead simple amp and a good cab respond to your playing and let all your nuance come out that a pedal/DI just doesn't capture with any authenticity, musicality, or authority.

[Blacksack]

Originally Posted by JimmyM

i think it's more the operator's doing than the amp's doing.

+1

[Mark Olson]

I have to agree that the SVT-3 Pro through the Ampeg 4x10" is not a bad rig. I never got a muddy sound out of it. But it does have too many knobs = a bunch of suck knobs which leaves a lot of room for operator error. This problem is only exacerbated by having a bass with it's own suck knobs already on it.

[Steveaux]

Well, that's one man's experience/opinion.

[grygrx]

Editing thread title and OP for "G" rating.