Zoom B3 As Preamp

[CharlieC]

Best Of Both Worlds

As could be assumed by the audio samples on my companion web page to this thread, I am a rock guy who plays with a pick and who favors gain-saturated bass tones. With this said, my favorite amp model in the B3 is the SVT.

In a perfect world, the preamp tone that feeds my power amp and bass speakers should also sound equally wonderful coming out of my XLR. This is especially NOT the case should any degree of high-gain or distortion exist in the signal. Bass speakers reshape and impart a very-necessary coloring on the preamp tone, IMHO. One may be able to do without that speaker coloring on their XLR/DI tone if they favor clean, full-range bass tones, but I am not one of them.

Until the Zoom B3 or its successor can allow one to independently employ cabinet sim on the XLR out and simultaneously have none on the 1/4" out, I have adopted a solution that works reasonably well for me and my equipment. Your results may vary.

In "Live" settings with other generally loud instruments, I would be happy to agree to a slight compromise to my on-stage tone if I knew that my front-of-house (FOH) sound was as I know it to be and one I approve of.

As it so happens, all of my physical bass cabinets have very capable tweeters that I typically have turned completely-off (no surprise, see first paragraph.) In all honesty, my favorite bass tones are from a famous 8x10 cabinet that did not even have a tweeter at all. The preamp signal that is being fed to my bass speakers via the power amp is full of certain frequencies that exist, but those frequencies will not see the light of day. I know that the roll-off of the speakers in the cabinet and the lack of a tweeter help make this so, but what if they were not expected to help out with tone-shaping, but instead were just tasked to reproduce the given signal as best they could?

My solution is as-follows and again, your results may vary:

Using the B3's drum machine or a music track from an iPod through your rig, find a tweeter setting that gets as close to a full-range experience as possible. Indeed, bass speakers are not full-range, but their attempts at it are better when a high-quality horn is also in the cabinet. Use your horn's attenuator knob and find a setting that works best to reproduce your test signal. For all my cabinets, I have identified this level as 100% of the horn.

With the bass cabinet now best set to reproduce a full-range signal, we can then set the B3 amp model's "Mix" parameter to 100, which is 100% of the signal after the cabinet sim. Your XLR signal should now be everything you want and your rig's local tone should only be slightly compromised.

Cheers!

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by CharlieC

In a perfect world, the preamp tone that feeds my power amp and bass speakers should also sound equally wonderful coming out of my XLR. This is especially NOT the case should any degree of high-gain or distortion exist in the signal. Bass speakers reshape and impart a very-necessary coloring on the preamp tone, IMHO. One may be able to do without that speaker coloring on their XLR/DI tone if they favor clean, full-range bass tones, but I am not one of them.

Precisely why I use my Zoom B2 as a kind of preamp through my fEARful 15/6. The design of the 15/6 is the perfect compliment to most PA's I run through (when I do go through a PA). I've verified the tone coming from my cab and the tone through the PA's I've used with my wireless.

But you are 100% correct that most cabs are going to color the sound in such a way that the line out to a PA may very well sound significantly different than what's coming out of one's rig.

VERY good point to bring up!

[oerk]

Sundogue, you're on to something here. I'd love to own a fEarful, but it's not happening ATM.

Do you have the tweeterless version (I'm assuming so, since you said 15/6, not 15/6/1)? How well does this work with the cab sims of the B2?

Charlie, I've tested the cab sims into my Marshall 2x10, and it does indeed sound better with the tweeter on. I did prefer the brighter sims that still retained some low end, though, like the Polytone 15. And I've had it only at 40-45%, 100% did not work for me. With some tweaking, I could get it to sound better than with the cab sim off, so that's good.

The next gig is two weeks away, I won't see how well this works into the PA until then.

I'm testing it tonight at band practice into my Hartke Kickback 15, which is very different from the Peavey/Marshall rig at home (clean amp, aluminium cone, no tweeter). This is the amp I'm using on pretty much every gig - it's essential that this combination is working.

I'm doing Rockabilly and Rock'n'Roll on electric and double bass, the chain in the B3 so far is as follows:
electric bass -> Bottom B -> Vibrato or Comp/Dist (need 2 patches for that) -> Fliptop w/ PT15 = perfect 60s sound, we'll see how well this compares against the VT Bass
(slapped) double bass -> 160 comp -> parametric EQ -> HRT3500, no cab sim

At our last gig, I had the opportunity to play double bass into a Hartke 3500, and it sounded phenomenal! I've been able to recreate this sound with the B3 pretty well.

[Sundogue]

Originally Posted by oerk

Sundogue, you're on to something here. I'd love to own a fEarful, but it's not happening ATM.

Do you have the tweeterless version (I'm assuming so, since you said 15/6, not 15/6/1)? How well does this work with the cab sims of the B2?

Yes, I have the 15/6 (tweeterless). I don't run much up higher than what the 18Sound mid delivers anyway. And through a PA there isn't any bass going to the high end of the PA either.

I don't use any cab sims on the B2. At least I haven't had the need to up to this point. The amphead/preamp sims are so good I really didn't like any cab sims with it. However, because the fEARful is less colored than most commercial cabs and is a bit more PA like (in that what you put into it, is what is pretty much going to come out), I'm sure the cab sims will not be detracted by the fEARful cab itself.

[CharlieC]

No Amp? No Problem!

IMHO, amazing results can be obtained by connecting the Zoom B3 directly to decent powered speakers as pictured below.

Connect with 1/4" from the B3 to the speaker, leaving the B3's XLR to feed FOH or alternatively connect with XLR from the B3 to the speaker and then daisy-chain speaker's THRU XLR to FOH.

I would highly suggest an amp sim "Mix" parameter level of 100 for this application, but let your own ears decide.

One important thing to mention is that since the volume knob for these powered speakers is inconveniently located on the rear of the cabinet, you should practice both accessing and tweaking the GLOBAL menu's "Level" parameter as your master volume. Easier said then done when performing, even more so if you have the B3 on the floor.

Cheers!

[oerk]

So, the Hartke Kickback 15 did work a lot better than the Marshall cab in combination with the cab sims. I'm confident that feeding the amp and PA simultaneously with the cab sim on will work out in my case.

[OzzyGreg]

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So, the Hartke Kickback 15 did work a lot better than the Marshall cab in combination with the cab sims. I'm confident that feeding the amp and PA simultaneously with the cab sim on will work out in my case.

Cool!
Let us know how it goes.

[CharlieC]

Avoid Being Clipped

The Zoom B3 does not provide any visual indication if you are running levels to the point of clipping. This is especially true in the case of the GLOBAL menu's LEVEL parameter, where even the cleanest signals are capable of causing the B3 to clip if the user attempts to make them louder from there.

I have recently found that the B3's XLR out is the first to fall victim to clipping as the B3 approaches its hottest output levels. The 1/4" outs are only slightly more tolerant. The end result for either occurrence is unwanted pops and clicks in the output caused by the distortion.

Through further testing I have estimated the GLOBAL Level's danger zone to begin at a value of 70 when the hottest possible AMP SIM + TOTAL levels exist underneath.

Knowing this, my rig now feels very comfortable with a fixed value of 60 and the power amp controlling the flow

[CharlieC]

Preamp vs. Cabinet Simulation

A "Mix" parameter exists for each of the Zoom B3's amplifier simulations that represents the ratio of the signal after the preamp vs. the signal after the cabinet. Careful use of this parameter is key to achieving the tone expected from the equipment receiving the Zoom B3's output.

I recently added a new collection of audio samples to my companion web page that focuses on preamp vs. cabinet simulation:

http://www.zinfanus.com/zoom_b3

This level of tonal flexibility is one of the main reasons the B3 is so adept at being a one-stop-shop for bass tones under numerous usage strategies!

[pm2lp]

Thanks for the info, I always thought the mix knob on the amp sims was for mixing dry/wet signals, like it does with the effects, but I checked the manual and you are right!

Cheers

[OmeDunk]

I don't understand. Can you please explain how you use this ratio?

Btw, thanks for sharing all this information

[oerk]

Originally Posted by OmeDunk

I don't understand. Can you please explain how you use this ratio?

Btw, thanks for sharing all this information

Easy.

We're talking about the mix parameter on the right knob of the third page of each amp sim - next to the cabinect selector (middle knob).

Mix fully counterclockwise - output of amp sim ONLY, without cabinet simulation.

Mix fully clockwise - full cab simulation, similar to a miced cabinet.

Like CharlieC said, enable the tweeter on your cab if you have one, even if you don't use it normally. The cab sim will take care of taking the high end. Start with a mix level of zero, and increase it until you like the result. Try different cab sims.

[BrentSimons]

Hi Charlie,
Are you finding the amp/cab sims an improvement over say the Line 6 Bass Pod XT or Pod X3?
Thank you for your time on this,
Brent

[CharlieC]

Originally Posted by BrentSimons

Hi Charlie,
Are you finding the amp/cab sims an improvement over say the Line 6 Bass Pod XT or Pod X3?
Thank you for your time on this,
Brent

Yes, Brent, I am quite sold on the amp/cab sims in the B3 over the Line 6 products mentioned.

IMHO as a bass player I feel that Line 6 has abandoned us in recent years and finding this level of quality and detail in this latest Zoom offering is very refreshing. The price point and form factor alone of the B3 is enough to make one take notice as I did, but it was the great sounding and feeling amp/cab sims that sealed the deal for me.

Although the device is not perfect, it's closest enough for me to displace all my other similar DSP gear and I highly recommend a look at it should you be interested :-)

Cheers!

[BrentSimons]

Originally Posted by CharlieC

Yes, Brent, I am quite sold on the amp/cab sims in the B3 over the Line 6 products mentioned.

IMHO as a bass player I feel that Line 6 has abandoned us in recent years and finding this level of quality and detail in this latest Zoom offering is very refreshing. The price point and form factor alone of the B3 is enough to make one take notice as I did, but it was the great sounding and feeling amp/cab sims that sealed the deal for me.

Although the device is not perfect, it's closest enough for me to displace all my other similar DSP gear and I highly recommend a look at it should you be interested :-)

Cheers!

Very informative Charlie. Thank you!
Brent

[jaeman111]

I use the Ampeg B15 model with compression and parametric eq. I send this through an Avalon U5 to the FOH, my IEM and a small 1x12 bass rig I run for a little stage ambience and rumble. For a little dirt in my tone I use the SVT model in place of the B15. It sounds killer.

[OzzyGreg]

.
On the cab sims off/on subject...

While I totally agree with you Charlie on the cab sims being turned right off when playing live, I find that when recording I am prefering the cab sims to be set at around 40-50%.

At least that's what I'm finding at present playing around recording with the Markbass simulation in the B3. I sort of like a bit of SWR 4x10 cab sims in the mix, rather than the original Markbass cab.

Greg

[lesliegl]

Hi thanks to all for this great discussion..i was under the impression that with the cab sims set to ''Origin'' within the chosen amp type that no cab simulation is taking place..so thats not the case???

[OzzyGreg]

.
I think you'll find that the cab sim is set at 50% by default when you first assign an amp type to a patch.

Interestingly, i just worked out that the G3 (guitar version) doesn't have a "mix" adjustment for the amp sims. You can select different cabs for different amps, but you're stuck with the default amp/cab blend.

[Swift713]

Originally Posted by lesliegl

Hi thanks to all for this great discussion..i was under the impression that with the cab sims set to ''Origin'' within the chosen amp type that no cab simulation is taking place..so thats not the case???

Origin means its simulating the original cabinet that was associated with that amp, for instance, the 8x10 for the SVT.