'51 RI Help

Stu L. · #1 10-11-2006, 01:02 PM

Well, it's happened again. I can't leave well enough alone. I *like* the sound that my new '51 has, but I think I could *love* the sound. Currently, there is a noticeable upper mid hump that drives me nuts. Would changing to better pots (CTS) and a new tone cap (Orange Drops or whatever) help in that department?

Or should I just be looking for a new pickup? I know that Duncan, Rio, and Loller all make replacements for this bass. Any ideas? Thanks.

LoveThatBass · #2 10-12-2006, 05:19 PM

Duncan 1/4 pounder

You have a private message and email concerning this.

Stu L. · #3 10-13-2006, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LoveThatBass

Duncan 1/4 pounder

You have a private message and email concerning this.

Replied. But what about the cap on the tone pot? I'm not big a fan of Duncan, but I may do it...

Stu L. · #4 10-14-2006, 09:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassman blue

give stan a call. his wiring harnesses may be what you're after. i've got one on the way...

http://www.has-sound.com/harnesses.htm#Bass%20Harnesses

People are really paying $79 and up for a few pots soldered togother

? I can do that, and plan to. Wow, the power of the internet.
Still not what I'm looking for.

fenderx55 · #5 10-14-2006, 11:31 AM

would the cap really do all that much?

Stu L. · #6 10-14-2006, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenderx55@yahoo

would the cap really do all that much?

That, in a much simpler way

, is what I was trying to ask. Would a better pot, combined with a better cap (maybe even a different value) alter the tone to what I am looking for?

fenderx55 · #7 10-15-2006, 06:35 PM

Well, a different value capacitor will let more bass through; but I never understood how you could have a better quality cap? It's just a little piece of ceramic isn't it?

Kenny Allyn · #8 10-15-2006, 07:04 PM

That "mid hump" is THE sound of a P bass ... I'm guessing that you knew that though. Like it or not I really don't think anything short of pickup change is gonna make you start that love-fest you seek ... and if you want a BIG phat sound with a flat response curve you may have to do the DS option. It's radical but works.

Attachment 43621

... Looks pretty cool too!

Atomicant · #9 10-15-2006, 09:48 PM

Um... turn your mids up?

Stu L. · #10 10-16-2006, 08:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fenderx55@yahoo

Well, a different value capacitor will let more bass through; but I never understood how you could have a better quality cap? It's just a little piece of ceramic isn't it?

I think we're asking the same question

.

While I am searching for the answer, I did find out that there is a $60 cap that vintage Les Paul lovers buy. I do beleive that to be a little extreme. But there are the Orange Drops, I think that's the name, and some others that a search here has turned up.

Kenny, great pic. I do agree that the mid hump is a part of the P sound, and this bass has it, and then some. I just want a way to dial it down a little.

RHFusillo · #11 10-16-2006, 09:34 AM

I hated the sound of the stock pickup on my 51 RI, but loved it when I installed a Duncan Antiquity I pickup -- the Antiquity is a much more authentic-sounding pickup, giving a bit more bottom than the stock pickup, and less saccharine high end. Beyond that, a bigger-value capacitor (0.1 uf?) could give you more thump when you roll off the treble.

Stu L. · #12 10-16-2006, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RHFusillo

Beyond that, a bigger-value capacitor (0.1 uf?) could give you more thump when you roll off the treble.

Can anyone provide info as to about what frequencies are affected by what value caps? I think that a .01uf may roll off enough treble to attack those high mids for me...

bassman blue · #13 10-21-2006, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubi19

People are really paying $79 and up for a few pots soldered togother

? I can do that, and plan to. Wow, the power of the internet.
Still not what I'm looking for.

you know, after you wrote that comment above, i deleted my post being a little embarrassed. anyway, my harness arrived from HAS Sound. the tone pot looks like something from a tank, huge and complex looking. i've had a few p/j basses now and they've never had a proper balanced sound between the p and j pickups and the j was always weak sounding. the pickup variation was either on or off, no variable blending throughout the span of the control.

after getting the harness in, my bass is dead quiet. the balance knob totally balances the sound between the two pickups, the j is throaty sounding and the p is deep and dark. i've honestly never been able to coax this array of sounds out of my p/j before. this is seriously the best $79 i've ever spent on bass gear. the tone knob even has a pull-out mid cut switch.

good luck with your $60 caps and other trial and error attempts.

http://www.has-sound.com/

chadds · #14 10-21-2006, 08:16 PM

I tried the Duncan and it sounded not too special. The Muy Grande was more vintage yet more exiting to me. As trebly as the oem was it did sound like an upright when I played it like that. Fooled my violinist. He walked it my studio and asked had I been playing upright on the last track when actually I had my 51 laying on my lap and picked it up and played on the track with roundwound nickels.

Stu L. · #15 10-21-2006, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bassman blue

you know, after you wrote that comment above, i deleted my post being a little embarrassed.

good luck with your $60 caps and other trial and error attempts.

Whoa, honestly, I didn't mean to offend, and will gladly delete that post if you so wish. I simply meant, pots are cheap. A CTS pot is just a few bucks. I can completely change the electrical "guts" of this bass, with new cap, for under $10 before shipping. Again, sorry about that post.

Still haven't decided what to do with this bass yet. I may just pick up the parts tomorrow from Allparts at the Arlington Guitar show. We'll see what happens.

JohnnyCrash · #16 10-22-2006, 02:42 PM

The tone cap will not do a whole lot to your mids. It will change the character of your Tone pot.

The pot values will adjust a little of the overall tone, but it will not squish that mid hump down. Seymour Duncan has an article about it in the website's Support section explaining how increasing the pot value affects the tone (it may be under a guitar type section, since I read it when making mods to guitars a few years back).

Changing the pickup may be the best bet, but as mentioned, the location of the pickup, as well as construction (single coil with it's narrower magnetic field, much like the Jazz Bass), as well as the bass' construction itself is what makes the '51 sound like it does.

A Quarter Pounder will give you a more agressive sound (more bass, a different treble character), an Antiquity will sound very similar but probably a little smoother on the top end, and the Rio Grande's will be similar to the QP's... I'd bet the QP's and Rio Grande's may even add more mids to the mix.

The problem is not caps, pots, or pickups... it's the character of the bass in general.

So unless you want to route the wood for another type of pickup entirely (Jazz, P-Bass, or other pickup), you'll probably just have to tweak your amp's EQ.

The look AND the scrappy midrange is why I'm a huge fan of the '51 RI's myself.

Stu L. · #17 10-22-2006, 04:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyCrash

The tone cap will not do a whole lot to your mids. It will change the character of your Tone pot.

The pot values will adjust a little of the overall tone, but it will not squish that mid hump down. Seymour Duncan has an article about it in the website's Support section explaining how increasing the pot value affects the tone (it may be under a guitar type section, since I read it when making mods to guitars a few years back).

Changing the pickup may be the best bet, but as mentioned, the location of the pickup, as well as construction (single coil with it's narrower magnetic field, much like the Jazz Bass), as well as the bass' construction itself is what makes the '51 sound like it does.

A Quarter Pounder will give you a more agressive sound (more bass, a different treble character), an Antiquity will sound very similar but probably a little smoother on the top end, and the Rio Grande's will be similar to the QP's... I'd bet the QP's and Rio Grande's may even add more mids to the mix.

The problem is not caps, pots, or pickups... it's the character of the bass in general.

So unless you want to route the wood for another type of pickup entirely (Jazz, P-Bass, or other pickup), you'll probably just have to tweak your amp's EQ.

The look AND the scrappy midrange is why I'm a huge fan of the '51 RI's myself.

Thanks Johnny for that reply. That really answers my question, as to whether or not a different value cap would help or not. I guess there is no way to have one cover a wider frequency spectrum. Bummer.

Kenny Allyn · #18 10-22-2006, 05:16 PM

Kinda what Johnny said is where I was headed ...

I'm major into the P bass sound just as it is. And it was with a lot of mixed feelings of both intrigue and trepidation that I approached using a Darkstar in a P bass ... although it might not be your exact answer, someone reading this may find it is for them.

http://www.lakland.com/darkstar.htm

http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showth...13#post3431113

... It gives the bass a total change of character tonally ... but I would always have to have a stock P bass.

Kenny Allyn · #19 10-22-2006, 05:28 PM

I'm gonna add her a little of my own experence with Stan over at HAS ...

I don't know the technical end of what he does, but he helped me with a project some time back. I have a Spector bass that I wanted to make passive (remove the EMGs) not only did he hand make the pickups for me, but the wiring harness as well. This harness has a passive mid control, allowing you to back out the mids.

... Don't know exactly how it works ... but it does.

JohnnyCrash · #20 10-22-2006, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stubi19

Thanks Johnny for that reply. That really answers my question, as to whether or not a different value cap would help or not. I guess there is no way to have one cover a wider frequency spectrum. Bummer.

"Bummer"?

Ah man, so you're not happy with the tone?

What amp and speakers do you have? What sound are you going for (recordings or bands that are similar to what you have in mind)?

I mostly play mine through an old 50s Fender Twin circuit guitar tube amp head I built into an AlNiCo Jensen P15N 1x15" cab I built... not loud enough for gigs, but what a dream to record with!

I've got a bigger Ampeg I run my '51 through for gigs. I'm one for vintage tone, a lot of mids, and I don't mind single coil noise at all (even when playing at loud volumes) - so I guess the '51 is right up my alley...

My girlfriend is a Jazz Bass cat, but she also digs the '51 P.

Maybe you could sell your '51 and get a different bass? Is it new (AKA returnable with a receipt)? The Fender "Classic" series '50s P-Bass was my next choice, I dig them maple fretboards...