ALNICO Pickups (or magnets) for Epi Viola/Rogue/Douglas Violin basses?

[Gear_Junky]

I did a lot of googling - i saw exactly 1 comment somewhere (at HC) that someone had replaced their viola-style bass's stock ceramic magnets with alnico magnets from StewMac. This was a very old post, so i didn't get a reply as to whether the magnets were an exact fit size-wise.

My particular bass is a Brownsville, but it's obviously from the same factory that makes Epi Violas, Rogue and Rondo's Douglas WVEB violin basses. They have bass "mini-humbuckers".

So far I can't find anyone who would offer an alnico pickup that would fit. I love GFS pickups, but they only have P/J for bass.

Artec and others only offer ceramics and I'm really not a fan.

and I really like the metal covers (don't like exposed coils, both visually, tonally and for shielding).

anyone?

P.S. TV Jones bass filtertron-style looks great, but too expensive for this bass (and for me).

[4Mal]

no doubt you could get mini humbucker format, either humbucking or single coil from Pete at Vintage Vibe. With him you can spec the magnet material. Probably more than you're intersted in spending but - he builds great stuff.

Another thought pickup wise is below... yes I know it's a guitar but the pickup realy doesn't care as it is a full range device. That is a Charlie Christian, single copil blade style pickup in mini-humbucker format. It replaced the Duncan mini-humbucker that I had in there previously. This is a much meatier and darker pickup and it still retains the clarity of the single coil voice. It is one of the best sounding pickup's I've ever heard on a guitar. Soooper Smoooth! $80 or $100 from Pete. I don't recall exactly. It features interchangable magnet sets. Mine came with Alnico 5 installed and a set of ceramic's that I can replace them with if I want to brighten it up. Nifty design idea that is...

[Gear_Junky]

yeah, $80 per pickup is way more than i want to spend. i'd maybe spend half that. or else just replace my own magnets. but still, thanks for the info!

maybe somebody else knows something?

[Gear_Junky]

just a "bumpity-bump" to see if anyone's tried alnico replacements?

[SGD Lutherie]

What are you looking to gain from replacing the magnets?

[Derek Kiernan]

You might be able to find the EB50 Bill Lawrence used to make, which is based off of his L500. I've read (but never heard) it's very warm, smooth, sparkly and detailed. The L500 fits in a mini-humbucker route and the EB50 is more or less the same pickup with extended blades, so you don't have to deal with any string spacing issues. I think the more recent ones used Alnico, but supposedly it didn't make much of a difference in the L500 as Bill designs the pickup around the magnetic source. He might have a couple around if you ask him.

It doesn't have a metal cover but of course doesn't have poles either. Shouldn't cost much!


I wouldn't try replacing magnets on any pickup - the pickup has to be designed around the magnetic source. Magnets aren't (or shouldn't) be interchangeable in context of the design.

[4Mal]

Originally Posted by Derek Kiernan

Magnets aren't (or shouldn't) be interchangeable in context of the design.

Actually that Mini-Humbucker format CC above was designed with exactly that in mind and it ships with two sets to encourage that experimentation. I'm enthralled enough with the Alnico that I haven't bothered with the experiment yet.

Originally Posted by Gear_Junky

yeah, $80 per pickup is way more than i want to spend. i'd maybe spend half that. or else just replace my own magnets. but still, thanks for the info!



maybe somebody else knows something?

IMO -you aren't going to find anything worth swapping to below that ... You might find someting that looks different or even sounds different but not necessarily 'better'. Maybe GFS has something that will catch your eye though. If I were going the budget route, I'd start with them.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by 4Mal

Actually that Mini-Humbucker format CC above was designed with exactly that in mind and it ships with two sets to encourage that experimentation. I'm enthralled enough with the Alnico that I haven't bothered with the experiment yet.

Real CC pickups have two cobalt steel magnets which are quite large and extend at a right angle from the bottom of the pickup.

For something like that alnico would be the way to go. I would use alnico II. Ceramic would be too hard sounding.

[Gear_Junky]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

What are you looking to gain from replacing the magnets?

looking for warmer, more soulful tone, which I know will be there. I play guitar and ivariably alnicos sound sweeter than ceramics. I'm looking to get the most out of this bass, although it sounds good.

I wouldn't try replacing magnets on any pickup - the pickup has to be designed around the magnetic source. Magnets aren't (or shouldn't) be interchangeable in context of the design.

i dunno, maybe, but i've read plenty of comments where people used stewmac alnicos to replace in their stock humbuckers (guitar) and that improved tone. I started this post because I saw someone else with a violin bass mention that he replaced magnets, but i wanted to make sure stewmac's (the only source i know) would fit.

Maybe GFS has something that will catch your eye though. If I were going the budget route, I'd start with them.

I love GFS pickups - i have 2 guitars with their pickups - both excellent. IMHO, GFS is only budget in price (at least as far as alnico pickups, if you choose the right one).

Unfortunately they don't have anything that matches this particular format.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Gear_Junky

looking for warmer, more soulful tone, which I know will be there. I play guitar and ivariably alnicos sound sweeter than ceramics. I'm looking to get the most out of this bass, although it sounds good.

I agree as far as guitar pickups, since I play guitar also, but depending on the design on the bass pickups, alnicos might just be duller sounding.

"Warm" is really just less high end. Ceramics can be brittle sounding, but they can be nice and fat too. I like neos now because they are bright like ceramics, and have a big warm low end like alnicos.

[Gear_Junky]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

"Warm" is really just less high end.

see, i disagree. i mean, not necessarily disagree, but maybe "see differently". I know that oftentimes "warm" is used as opposite of "bright" (which should really be "dark").

but to me "warm" is opposite of "brittle" or "harsh", you can also think "sweet".

like tube amps sound warmer than solid-states. i have a behringer bdi21 - a cheap copy of Tech 21 Bass DI SansAmp, which emulates tube sound. When I run my bass through it into my cheap peavey amp, it sounds "warmer" (in my use) or more tubey or "liquidy". the sound is somehow sweeter and more pleasant.

if we go back to beatle-time hofners, everything was probably alnico, so that's also naturally "the" sound.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Gear_Junky

see, i disagree. i mean, not necessarily disagree, but maybe "see differently". I know that oftentimes "warm" is used as opposite of "bright" (which should really be "dark").

but to me "warm" is opposite of "brittle" or "harsh", you can also think "sweet".

It's still a lack of top end. Too much top end can sound brittle. Lack of top end isn't a bad thing, and to me that's what tone controls are for.

But I agree that some ceramic pickups can sound harsh. But properly designed they wont. Look at Alembic for example.

like tube amps sound warmer than solid-states. i have a behringer bdi21 - a cheap copy of Tech 21 Bass DI SansAmp, which emulates tube sound. When I run my bass through it into my cheap peavey amp, it sounds "warmer" (in my use) or more tubey or "liquidy". the sound is somehow sweeter and more pleasant.

Now notice you say tubes are warmer than SS, but then you mention two warm sounding SS units! Even some of the devices that use a 12AX7 tube for "tube sound" are running it with the plates starved. So it's kind of an exaggeration of a tube sound. Mainly it has a lack of headroom.

I have a real tube amp... a Mesa 400+. I don't use it much anymore. The tone is too colored for my tastes now. I really just want to hear my bass the way the bass sounds. The bass is plenty warm when I want that tone. But once again, it's a softer treble response, with slower attack times. But the Mesa wasn't any warmer than the GK-800RB I also had at the same time, just different sounding.

Check out Pritchard Amps. They are totally solid state, and sound just like vintage tube amps. He has a lot of good info regarding the tube v. solid state myth. It's really more about the design.

if we go back to beatle-time hofners, everything was probably alnico, so that's also naturally "the" sound.

A lot of pickups by Hofner, Burns, and the like used ceramic magnets. They used what they had available, and no one thought "oh don't use a ceramic because it sounds like crap" or whatever. All those great warm Brain May tones are from ceramic magnet pickups.

And a lot of those Beatle recordings had Paul's Ric with ceramic magnets in the bridge pickup.

Here's an old Hofner 513 Super pickup:

http://www.vintagehofner.co.uk/hofne...ckups/513.html

Note he says:

By the way, the magnets are ceramic, not cast alnico as was used on all previous Hofner pickups.

So.. replacing a ceramic with an alnico might very well "warm" up the sound of the pickup. It will have a bit less top end, and might have less volume as well. Could be just what the doctor ordered.

I experimented with alnico magnets in my pickups to see if it was a useful "vintage" tone, and I thought it was just too soft and dull sounding. But the neos do sound "warmer" than the ceramics, which just sound thinner due to less low end push. But obviously alnicos sound good in Fender pickups.

[SGD Lutherie]

Yeah, it's a fake HB.

[4Mal]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Real CC pickups have two cobalt steel magnets which are quite large and extend at a right angle from the bottom of the pickup.

For something like that alnico would be the way to go. I would use alnico II. Ceramic would be too hard sounding.

Pete does a 'real' CC. I wanted to implement someting that would be more aesthetically appealing visually while having a simlar tonality. The CC is dark and smokey enough that I could see some players preferring it with the ceramic magnets installed. I'm sticking with the Alnico in this one. My Strat get's me into the Trower/SRV neighborhood. This one get's me into a very different, very jazzy place.

[SGD Lutherie]

Real CC pickups are not "dark and smoky" they are deep, but clean and clear. Not dark at all. It's only a 6K coil.

Here's what the magnets look like;

They are five-inch-long cobalt steel bar magnets. That's a lot of added inductance that you wont get with a small alnico or ceramic magnet.

[Gear_Junky]

i guess you're right. maybe i could just stick with the ceramics.

the 2 solid-state devices i mention are warm-ER than a conventional amp, BECAUSE they emulate tubes.

I understand what you're saying about Brian May and McCartney tones, but again, they had those nice tube amps, which I don't. I do have one for guitar, but not for bass. I just thought I could improve my tone that way, take it a bit beyond "generic". I'm not looking to emulate any specific vintage tone.

this makes me wonder if my bass even has a true mini-humbucker. it's a fully covered pup, no poles to be seen.

keep in mind too, people also just have different tastes. some people like "modern" bass tones - i don't.

[Gear_Junky]

Originally Posted by GlennW

I think I know what type of sound you're after. Try some OD polyester film (225 series, not the polypropylene OD's) caps with no pots. I'm working on a hollow body bass now which will switch between .1uF and .069uF (.022 + .047). Bypassing the pots is important.

Here's a good source, top right, 200 VDC. They also have the polyprops and Mallory 150s if you want to experiment.
http://www.mouser.com/catalog/629/666.pdf

ok, you got my attention

normally (with guitars) i know that bypassing pots gets you a brigther (fuller) sound, right? On the other hand going with just the caps means like having the tone rolled all the way back.

so you're saying Pickup -> Cap -> Jack... what about the neck/bridge pickup - do I use a 3-way toggle (and that way I could use just one cap for both pickups, right?

or are you saying i can keep the volume pots, but bypass the tone pot and JUST have the tone cap?

Does this mod have a generic "name", so I can search/read about it?

[Gear_Junky]

ok, understood, but you're also saying it's important what kind of cap to use (not just its value)? a simple orange drop won't do?

[Gear_Junky]

hm, a .1, that's like a fully closed tone, except the high value of the cap won't make it too dull, right? or is it the other way around?

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by GlennW

It's the other way around; the larger the cap the more highs are blocked. The absence of pots seems to add presence.

Right, pots load the pickups down. Two 250K pots in the circuit equals a 125K resistor shunted to ground.

If you get three caps, .022, .047 and .1, you'll be able to try a wide range of values from .022 - .169. Usually .1 is as large as anyone uses, it was used on the Harmony H22, old Kay basses, and some Fenders and others. If .1 is too bassey for you, try .069.

Personally I like .02 for my passive basses. It takes off the top end, and leaves the mids, which is where the punch comes from. .047 is good when you want a real dark tone. I don't care for .1, it's just too dark. I hear a lot of bassist using this really dark tone trying to play 70's soul stuff (like when I saw Nikka Costa resently), but that's the wrong tone. It sounds like mud from out in the audience and you can't hear what notes are being played. Just a big boomy mess. You gotta have some mids in there!