Audre preamp for the SB5000?

[Rickett Customs]

Originally Posted by KenToby

I think you're veered off the track a bit. Carvin's preamps may very well be built by a supplier but keep in mind this VERY important fact... They are built to Carvin's strict specifications, period!
Do you think my company builds all 6 million parts that go into a Jumbo Jet? Of course not, but every part is built to OUR specifications to meet the needs of our design just like Carvin does with their products. Their preamp specifications were fed to an independent supplier only after extensive integrated electronics testing by Carvin (the SB pickups are rated at 8.25 ohms of resistance, in turn Carvin had to factor in and match things like preamp potentiometer ohm resistance, frequencies and Q slopes to get the voice they were after). The voice you hear from the SB is a result of engineering and testing, not luck, this is how we make airplanes fly too, this is how modern, world class engineering works. My friend, I'm afraid you might be the one surprised at the extent to which Carvin goes to make their magic happen at their testing facility. Thanks KT

You could be right, Ken.
But then again, from what I know about many manufacturers, it would not surprise me if this pre is just one that was just merely "picked out" and not "built to spec"....... it happens, but without exacting knowledge of carvin's inner workings, it could only be 50/50 at best either way. Unless being an engineer working with carvin, good luck verifying that.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by KenToby

Bro, I'm afraid you simply just don't understand how these things work.

You are saying "bro" and you are telling me I don't understand how things work in the same sentence? Seriously? How old are you?

I know how things work. I've worked for guitar makers that made guitars that got played by famous people and I've been to several large instrument makers factories. I currently make pickups, some of which get used by famous people. Not that that matters, but come on now.

First off, Carvin is not a huge company. And that's good. They are fun by the Kiesel family. Lowell Kiesel started the L. C. Kiesel Company in 1946. He renamed the company after his two eldest sons, Carson and Gavin in 1949.

Their website states: "Today, Carvin operates an 80,000 square foot facility in San Diego, and employs over 100 people."

There is no reason for Carvin to do all that. Carvin has been making pickups for a very long time. They don't need specialized test equipment or "specialized test facilities". They already know what they are doing, and like anyone else, you make a new pickup prototype, and you try it in a bass. Then you either like it or not. Then you make changes or you keep it.

And please explain what YOU think "specialized test facilities" are? What are you thinking, guys in white lab coats with clipboards and wind tunnels and stuff?

Carvin might very well test the frequency response of their pickups. But I bet you that they don't. It's not a very meaningful test for a number of reasons. They do what every other pickup makers does, they use their ears.

For their preamps, they have someone design the circuit based on what they want it to do. They pick the center frequencies, maybe it has active blend, etc. They do some interesting stuff from time to time, like when they had preamps that adjusted the output when you boosted or cut a band. But that didn't last long, so it probably wasn't as useful as it seemed.

Sorry, but this stuff is NOT rocket science. All these companies have talented designers, and make good stuff. But your enthusiasm is a little over the top, and as I said, they don't have "specialized test facilities" like you think they do.

But be my guest and go to their factory and show us the specialized test facilities.

But here you go. Here's the specialized test facilities in this video. They use headphones etc., for the guitar amps. They listen to them. For the power amps they do a burn in test to make sure they don't fail.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?NR=1&fe...&v=REiwxljgTtU

And they do make their own circuit boards etc in house, as does EMG, etc.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj-ZoKh83fY

It's a factory, and they make nice stuff.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by KenToby

Their preamp specifications were fed to an independent supplier only after extensive integrated electronics testing by Carvin...

This shows you are just making things up. They make their own preamps in house:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj-ZoKh83fY

So do I! Only not as many lol

[KenToby]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

This shows you are just making things up. They make their own preamps in house:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kj-ZoKh83fY

So do I! Only not as many lol

If you are going to try and discredit me, at least keep my words in context... I wrote: Carvin's preamps "may" very well be built by a supplier... The word MAY is key because both YOU AND I don't know where the bass preamp is built, and the video doesn't show a bass preamp being made either.

Again , don't be so shallow, we know Carvin doesn't just throw components together and "hope for the best", they indeed do employ science and technology when developing a product, don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by KenToby

If you are going to try and discredit me, at least keep my words in context... I wrote: Carvin's preamps "may" very well be built by a supplier... The word MAY is key because both YOU AND I don't know where the bass preamp is built, and the video doesn't show a bass preamp being made either.

Again , don't be so shallow, we know Carvin doesn't just throw components together and "hope for the best", they indeed do employ science and technology when developing a product, don't fool yourself into thinking otherwise.

No one said they throw things together. I said they don't have a "specialized test facility," and don't do all the things you said they do. You wanted to make out that I was clueless. This is the stuff I do. Go back and read your original post. You made it out to be the best engineered preamp and that it was voiced for the pickups, etc., none of which is the case. They do what every other company does. They design things based on what ever goal they have in mind and then tweak it to sound good.

Carvin makes very nice instruments and amps, etc. But it's apple and oranges. I pointed out how the Audere had features the carvin preamp didn't, which is why the OP wanted it.

[KenToby]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

No one said they throw things together. I said they don't have a "specialized test facility," and don't do all the things you said they do. You wanted to make out that I was clueless. This is the stuff I do. Go back and read your original post. You made it out to be the best engineered preamp and that it was voiced for the pickups, etc., none of which is the case. They do what every other company does. They design things based on what ever goal they have in mind and then tweak it to sound good.

Carvin makes very nice instruments and amps, etc. But it's apple and oranges. I pointed out how the Audere had features the carvin preamp didn't, which is why the OP wanted it.

Put the shovel down and stop digging. To quote the late ex-NY mayor Ed Koch, "I can explain but I cant make you comprehend". I'm done here!

[Hawkbone]

Originally Posted by KenToby

Put the shovel down and stop digging. To quote the late ex-NY mayor Ed Koch, "I can explain but I cant make you comprehend". I'm done here!

dude, you're the one who's making unsupported claims with no real knowledge of the industry. SGD is doing the exact opposite, and I'd wager he's much closer to the truth than you are.

For future reference, from one engineer to another: being an engineer in one field does not make you an expert in all fields. You would do well to gain some respect for experience as well - SGD makes pickups and pre-amps and has years of experience at it.

[KenToby]

Originally Posted by Hawkbone

dude, you're the one who's making unsupported claims with no real knowledge of the industry. SGD is doing the exact opposite, and I'd wager he's much closer to the truth than you are.

For future reference, from one engineer to another: being an engineer in one field does not make you an expert in all fields. You would do well to gain some respect for experience as well - SGD makes pickups and pre-amps and has years of experience at it.

Sitting at home hand winding pickups and soldering capacitors into a PC board is cool but don't try to pass that off as cutting edge engineering or world class manufacturing, that's not how its done anymore and as an "engineer" you should know this. I stand by my prior posts.

[Hawkbone]

Originally Posted by KenToby

Sitting at home hand winding pickups and soldering capacitors into a PC board is cool but don't try to pass that off as cutting edge engineering or world class manufacturing, that's not how its done anymore and as an "engineer" you should know this. I stand by my prior posts.

That's my point - my field of expertise isn't electronics, so I won't try to pass off my guesses about how it works as fact, which is what you are doing.

If I were to guess, though, I'd say that the major difference in engineering effort between say SGD and Carvin would be in tweaking a prototype design for mass production. I would further hazard to guess that, if anything, sound quality suffers as a result of that engineering effort rather than being improved by it.

[Session1969]

Really , gentlemen ?

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by KenToby

Sitting at home hand winding pickups and soldering capacitors into a PC board is cool but don't try to pass that off as cutting edge engineering or world class manufacturing, that's not how its done anymore and as an "engineer" you should know this. I stand by my prior posts.

Ha! Have you ever made a pickup?

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCqrGyEJFqc

Now tell me how that's different from what I'm doing? As a matter of fact, if you buy a Duncan Antiquity, Seymour personally sits there and winds it on a manual hand winder, just like I do.

Like this:

http://youtu.be/AIuxrySevfg?t=6m2s

(at 6:02)

Other pickup makers also hand wind like Kent Armstrong.

Very soon my CNC winder will be up and running.

And lots of effects pedals and stuff still use through hole parts. I'm making a replica of a 1976 Stingray pickup. Why would I use surface mount parts?

The ends is what's important, not the means. Would you rather have a hand built bass, or one done in a factory on CNC routers? Nothing wrong with the later, but they don't have the attention to detail as in the former.

[wcoffey81]

does sweeping the floor count as "working at" a major aerospace company?

[KenToby]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Ha! Have you ever made a pickup?

Check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iCqrGyEJFqc

Now tell me how that's different from what I'm doing? As a matter of fact, if you buy a Duncan Antiquity, Seymour personally sits there and winds it on a manual hand winder, just like I do.

Like this:

http://youtu.be/AIuxrySevfg?t=6m2s

(at 6:02)

Other pickup makers also hand wind like Kent Armstrong.

Very soon my CNC winder will be up and running.

And lots of effects pedals and stuff still use through hole parts. I'm making a replica of a 1976 Stingray pickup. Why would I use surface mount parts?

The ends is what's important, not the means. Would you rather have a hand built bass, or one done in a factory on CNC routers? Nothing wrong with the later, but they don't have the attention to detail as in the former.

Honestly, I would rather have a bass built on a CNC machine. I think we all agree that the tolerances of CNC'ed parts are much tighter and consistent than a guy with templates and a router. Parts fit together better, neck pockets are tighter, on and on. Again, this is more the norm than not today. This is how Carvin builds their basses with wonderful results. Quality materials coupled with a 5 axis CNC machine are the way to go.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by KenToby

Parts fit together better, neck pockets are tighter, on and on.

Nonsense. You can find a lot of factory guitars with sloppy neck pockets etc.

You can't slip a sheet of paper in my neck joints.

You don't see fine violins and arch top guitars being made that way for a reason.

CNC odes offer repeatability, and I'll all for that, but in the end all instruments require hand work.

[smeet]

I hate to interrupt this really fun discussion, but back on topic:

The Carvin SB5000 is a well-matched system - bass, preamp, pickups etc. I would NOT replace the preamp or the pickups. I've had work done on mine, and while I'm happy, it's given me some idea of how well the components are matched up (I don't know if it's a research lab, or Sekou doing a lot of listening, but it works). I have several basses with Nordstrand pickups, and I have the Audere 4-band in one. The Audere is NOT an aggressive preamp, it's transparent and I'm not that excited by the sound. The Carvin is more aggressive and up-front to my ears. I'm talking about using the eq here, if you set them flat, they probably both sound pretty close. The East preamp gives you more of a scooped modern sound, it does NOT have a flat setting, so if you don't like the scoop, don't go there.

Here's what I did:
1) I got the Volume/Blend and sweepable mids, which from Carvin means no passive tone or passive option. I had the guys at Nordstrand add passive tone and active/passive switch.
2) I LOVE the sound of the neck pickup, but the bridge pickup was too thin-sounding for my taste (70's position). I had the cavity routed and put a Nordstrand Big Single in the 60's bridge position (since it's wider, the rout was done in one direction and that worked pretty well).

Here's my recommendations:
The ultimate electronics setup for the SB5000 is what I have, it has all the options: bass, treble, sweepable mids, volume/blend, active/passive switch, passive tone which works in both modes. Pure win, I can get a huge variety of tones. Carvin says it can't be done, but Carey's shop did it without much problem.

The pickup issue is a bit more murky. The Big Single is a great, fat sounding pickup, and my bridge tone is now much thicker and more usable. But... The Carvin pickups are MUCH brighter, hotter, and have less single-coil noise. I was very surprised by that. I had to play with the pickup heights to get the pickup volumes to match.

Overall, the SB5000 is a brighter bass than I prefer, so it's a good change for me, as I like a soloed bridge pickup that sounds thick and heavy rather than thin and bright. A switch to Nordstrands might be an improvement to your ears, but it won't get you more bite IME.

[Rickett Customs]

Originally Posted by KenToby

Quality materials coupled with a 5 axis CNC machine are the way to go.

Fender, Peavey and dozens of other makers also use these very same machines, low and behold, they do have neck pockets with space.

[KenToby]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Nonsense. You can find a lot of factory guitars with sloppy neck pockets etc.

You can't slip a sheet of paper in my neck joints.

You don't see fine violins and arch top guitars being made that way for a reason.

CNC odes offer repeatability, and I'll all for that, but in the end all instruments require hand work.

A CNC'ed part is only as good as the code entered into the machine. Big tolerances = big gaps and vice versa, you guys know that. I cant slide a sheet of paper into the neck pocket of my Carvin SB5000 or many of my other basses due to quality control by the manufacturers. If you have bad fitting parts on your bass, don't blame the CNC machine, again, it's the code (assuming all else is in good working order). CNC is much more accurate than a guy with a ruler and hand tools; That's a nice romantic thought but Numerical Controlled machines far out weigh hand work in most all industries now due to their accuracy.

[grygrx]

Closed for review, there will be pain.