Can MIDI (really) WORK with the BASS ?

[NelZ]

I've a Yamaha G50 and their pickup on my 6-string fretless.

We just did a gig - covers and originals. Lucky Man by ELP was one. We're 3 piece, guitar bass and drums. In the end of that tune I switched to Taurus pedals and switched the bass to synth only for Keith's solo. I have practiced a lot since you really have to with the MIDI. You have to play really differently. My problem is the tracking and false tones from the harmonics. I played the solo around position 12 since I found the harmonics were more controllable there.

I'm still not happy. On the next gig I'll bring a keyboard.

Has anyone out there done some tricks or has some magic settings to optimize this system? I've even tried slipping a foam rubber sheet under the strings near the nut to quiet those evil harmonics - it does some but not enough (and you can't use open strings).

Thanks Pat from FM for the heads up on this site! I'm glad Mike's playing guitar now - He's too sick!

Thanks to all if you can help or not.

NelZ

[brandonwong]

IMO, I have tried the best out there... AXON with RMC piezos and i think i can safely say its extremely difficult to use midi tracking for bass "live".
It will be at most suited for inputing notes into the pc/mac to save time.

The VBass is best at emulating other sounds and for live use. It does no midi and there is no tracking issues.
Bass synth is powerful as well as emulating organ type sounds if that is what you are looking for.
As for playing flute, saxophone, percussion patch... i'll say forget it and leave it to the keyboardist.

Cheers!

[elros]

I use a Roland GR-20 for the small bits of MIDI synth that I need. But as I haven't tried either the AXON or the Yamaha I don't know if it's better or worse. You may hear some sound samples here though to get some impression of how it tracks....

[NelZ]

Thanks for your replies.

The next question is...

Flatwounds?

versus our favorite (most of us I believe) round callus files.

any thoughts? (based on experience hopefully)

NelZ

[elros]

Well I use SIT Silencers on my fretless - not quite flats but not quite rounds either. They work fine. I do not think that tracking would be worse with the use of flatwound strings. In fact I think it could be better. Flatwounds have less upper harmonic content, which would mean less junk to confuse the poor pitch recognition algorithm. To back up that theory, I experience better tracking on my fretless than on my fretted - and the fretless has less upper harmonic content.

[luknfur]

FWIW:

I've had the V Bass and Roland GR 20. The V bass of course is not an issue cause it's not a synth. Has some cool tones but does not cover the spectrum of a synth. The synth you have tracking issues. Most feasible approach I'm aware of is going piccolo bass. You can buy long scale piccolo bass strings but you'll be playing guitar range frequencies less use of pitch shifting - but at least it would feel and play more like a bass. I never tried it when I had the GR 20 but I wish I had in retrospect. There are no flatwound piccolo strings for long scale I'm aware of.

[PilbaraBass]

other than laying some inarticulate strings in the background to "fatten" up a sound, I don't see much practical use for midi-synth on bass...bass just doesn't track well enough-as, like you said, the harmonics start taking over and you get these weird octave jumping note thing happening.

The only way to get the best of both worlds is to go to an extended range bass, like a 7 or 8 string, and play the midi parts on the higher pitched strings.

[NelZ]

I don't have one BUT if I used a CAPO I might be able to "relocate" those evil harmonics (sorry Jaco) so that they aren't right where your finger is when you let up on the string to (hopefully) stop the note (like it works without mMIDI) !

Sounds like a scathingly brilliant idea? (sorry Hayley Mills)

I must try it - I'll post the results...

NelZ

[greenboy]

My experience is that even played way up the neck the fat strings just don't track as well as an electric guitar playing the same pitches on slimmer ones.

Glad I found the V-Bass because I sure don't have the patience for playing within the limits pitch-to-midi has, especially on bass. Fortunately it does some good synth sounds, especially when tweaking COSM models in conjunction with dynamic envelope filters and EQ, etc.

[Dirk Diggler]

Axon with RMC's works well, you do have to play with it not just play your normal style. Then again the sounds you are playing have a lot to do with how well it tracks. If the Yamaha tracks like a Roland I can understand your frustration. I've even used the Axon hex pickup (which is actually the Yamaha) and the low B and E don't do too badly with those. You aren't going to be doing 32nd licks on the B and E, but played cleanly it is very useable.
Dirk

[JansenW]

Originally Posted by greenboy

My experience is that even played way up the neck the fat strings just don't track as well as an electric guitar playing the same pitches on slimmer ones.

I've read somewhere (probably TB) that the synth needs about 2 wavelenghts before it can track the pitch, which would make using a bass (which uses lower pitches) more difficult. Never thought about string thickness as being a factor.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by JansenW

I've read somewhere (probably TB) that the synth needs about 2 wavelenghts before it can track the pitch

Synths don't care. They just recieve midi data (note-ons etc). It's a PITCH-TO-MIDI CONVERTOR that does the analysis, and then makes a stream of midi data that can be routed to synths.

which would make using a bass (which uses lower pitches) more difficult. Never thought about string thickness as being a factor.

The more flexible strings of a guitar tend to not put out as many spurious inharmonics during transients as a fatter less flexible string does, and these tend to make it harder to be spot-on at identifying what the true fundamental is.

[JansenW]

Greenboy,

Great info to know. - Thanks

[NelZ]

I got two styles of capo at the store today. It "seems" a bit better but I need more testing.



I work with my nephew who has been appraised of my problems. He's a killer guitarist with Randori lately, and a jazzer in his foundation. He says I should play my guitar/MIDI - not the bass.


My wife and I sponsored a concert a few years ago with he and my other nephew (killer on drums...) They played "Got a Match" from Chick's Electric Band. He used his old Roland guitar midi synth (model unknown) and (if you know how fast that tune is) did a great job. He says he really has to change the playing style.

I guess he means that any note muted by releasing pressure with your fretting finger HAS TO HAVE another finger resting on that string on the nut side to kill the harmonic.

Keep 'em Flying!
NelZ

[PilbaraBass]

Originally Posted by greenboy

Synths don't care. They just recieve midi data (note-ons etc). It's a PITCH-TO-MIDI CONVERTOR that does the analysis, and then makes a stream of midi data that can be routed to synths.



The more flexible strings of a guitar tend to not put out as many spurious inharmonics during transients as a fatter less flexible string does, and these tend to make it harder to be spot-on at identifying what the true fundamental is.

2 wavelengths is what the converter requires to determine the pitch and then convert it to a midi note...the primary issue here is tracking delays.

strong upper harmonic content can confuse a unit by allowing the higher octave to be translated first...the primary issue here is the wrong octave (usually one higher) being sounded.

since algorithms are set up to try and track a unit as quickly as possible, this in itsself created octave-discernment problems...it's sort of like a bad trade off...

the best way to deal with it, is to play notes on as high an octave as high as possible, and then let the midi do its job and transpose the notes back down..

this is why piccolo basses work better for midi, and guitars work even better...

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by PilbaraBass

2 wavelengths is what the converter requires to determine the pitch and then convert it to a midi note...the primary issue here is tracking delays.

That got covered higher up in the thread I believe. Then I added that there is also another reason BASSES don't drive midi as well as guitars.

strong upper harmonic content can confuse a unit by allowing the higher octave to be translated first...the primary issue here is the wrong octave (usually one higher) being sounded.

Yes, but due to inelasticity of strings increasing as they get fatter, the harmonic content becomes more compromised by inharmonic content. That is, as flexiobility decreases, the harmonic content is less true to the natural overtone series, with harmonics increasingly sharp and often because of the non-ideal vibrational situation, it becomes rather obvious to the ear. A good example is the B string complaints you often read about in forums. Also kind of underlines how the reason many pitch-shifting effects have trouble as you go lower.

Also what's been called Clang Tone comes into play. Read the tech section on the Novax website about this phenom. This, and CLANK (extraneous noises being picked up) are more prevalent typically on bass than on guitar.

since algorithms are set up to try and track a unit as quickly as possible, this in itsself created octave-discernment problems...it's sort of like a bad trade off...

The inharmonicity of fatter strings I brought up does much more than make it tough to tell what octave is being dis-played. It actually can fool the detection into thinking an entirely different fundamental might be present.

this is why piccolo basses work better for midi, and guitars work even better...

Pretty much what I said earlier.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by NelZ

My wife and I sponsored a concert a few years ago with he and my other nephew (killer on drums...) They played "Got a Match" from Chick's Electric Band. He used his old Roland guitar midi synth (model unknown) and (if you know how fast that tune is) did a great job.

Was it this?:




Yeah, you really have to reel your technique in to play faster passages and still get consistent sound quality - especially if you are using synth patches or samples that have instantaneous attack in the filter and amplitude envelopes. But it can be done. The Roland guitar did much better than the Roland bass version at getting the pitch-to-midi convertor to read the correct note, and better than anything else we tried save for the Peavey Cyberbass - which did not have any delay or tracking problems since it used sensors in the frets to KNOW what note was being fingered. Even then, you had to be articulate in your gestural control/technique.

[greenboy]

Originally Posted by NelZ

Flatwounds?

Maybe; maybe not. The lesser amplitude of higher overtones might be a boon. On the other hand, since flatwounds are more rigid, the harmonics that are there are more inharmonic. Be worth trying. Myself, I'd proably go for a lighter gauge balanced tension roundwound set or compressionwound set (Smith Compressors, GHS Pressurewound) which seems to be just the ticket with the V-Bass when it's actually doing pitch conversion stuff (as when pitch shifting/harmonizing, or using the COSM Oscillator model).

[NelZ]

For me to put flats on a bass. Let alone anything except for Rotosounds...been using them for over 30 years. Used to break a D or G every 2 weeks gigging. My technique is better now - I never break anything yet I still huff and puff and tug real hard..........

Mike's axe, not the one in the pic. I think a GR-30 ???
It had touch sensitive controls (touch the pickup bezel and you'd get some controller send action) and no "bow'n'arrow" shape either. Les Paul shape I think.

[tanuki]

Im using the AXON and a hipshot Ghost bridge with the hex expander..
ive also used roland pickups and their GI20....

The axon and ghost combo works best for me, i run it through a motu 828 into a laptop with VST synths and the only problems i have are with some of the VST instruments being a bit slower than the others latency wise..

I play a few tunes with the normal bass signal doubled with a midi Rhodes and it allways seems to track really well, these AXON units are especially good if you use them with a pick (which i dont much), the roland stuff used to fart around on the tracking a lot more..