Cheap basses are hotter???

[maturanesa]

I recently try some basses and realized that most of the cheap/crap basses are hotter than the quality ones. For example, a cheap Samick was hotter than a Fender. A chinese Cort too. (hotter a lot, maybe twice the signal). a chines Jackson too.
But why is this? cheap brands think "well, if the sound will be crap at least it would be loud", or what?

[IronLung1986]

haha i've actually noticed this many times myself. i always found it kind of endearing, that an otherwise junky bass would just be stinkin loud for the whole world to hear haha.

[waleross]

My Cheap bass is a Squire something or other that was $199. It plays and sounds good. I use it for head and cab testing. I could re-sell it for $100 with the gig bag. Anything less isn't worth buying. I gave it a new set of strings and a pro set-up. No big deal either way. Its not for prime time but I didn't buy it for that......

[Johnny Crab]

Maybe because they have good pickups.

The latest cheapo here is a white LP clone with what look to be the same Aztec pickups that are in the Brice T-Bird clone. Used it last night at a gig and they are. BUT, the humbuckers in the Greco LP clone are WAY hotter(bigger pickup & magnets, more windings IMO).

[JimiLL]

Yeah, my first bass (Ibanzez GIO PJ) was awfully clanky and "hot"

[puddin tame]

i'm yet to meet a bass that feeds a hotter signal than my act/act corvette std

[darkstorm]

They get higher output pups more often. Its better pups in many cases imo. But then I'm in the camp that prefers Dimazrio and such pups which also tend to be hotter then the pups theyre often used to replace on more expensive basses. A fair amount of inexpensive but nice basses are built very well imo and are targetted to younger players who prefer hotter sound and would have that also on more expensive basses if they got such. Often theyre target audiance is more into modern rather then vintage sound to. A few more expensive basses also have these type of hotter pups stock. Cause again theyre into the modern bass players thing rather then the lower output pup voices of old and theyre clones etc. Of course I'm among those who preferred hotter basses even back in the 1970's when aI was starting out. Lol.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Johnny Crab

Maybe because they have good pickups.

not really.

these basses (guitars too, actually) usually have cheaper pickups, which typically consist of steel slugs in the coil and a cheap ceramic magnet glued to the bottom.

tone quality aside, this design will usually be louder than an alnico-rod pickup with a similar amount of wire wrapped on it.

also, many cheap basses have preamps with out-of-control boost controls, to make them sound "powerful" in the music store.

[klyph]

Originally Posted by Johnny Crab

WAY hotter(bigger pickup & magnets, more windings IMO).

I thought I read a long time ago that- all other things being equal (magnet material/strength, wind quality/guage, etc.)- FEWER winds on a polepiece equalled a hotter signal. Certainly in a high production situation, I would think fewer winds= less time a pickup spends on a winder= more pickups wound per hour (or shift)= cheaper pickups. Oh yeah, less copper too. This assumes that my assumption about winds is correct, and that the maker is renumerated on an hourly basis, both of which may be wrong (I've heard that most production work in Asia is paid by the piece). Is there a pickup winding expert lurking?

[walterw]

it's the exact opposite. more winds equals a louder pickup (at the price of less high end).

[asberrys]

Originally Posted by walterw

not really.

these basses (guitars too, actually) usually have cheaper pickups, which typically consist of steel slugs in the coil and a cheap ceramic magnet glued to the bottom.

tone quality aside, this design will usually be louder than an alnico-rod pickup with a similar amount of wire wrapped on it.

also, many cheap basses have preamps with out-of-control boost controls, to make them sound "powerful" in the music store.

Obviously steel slugs are cheaper than Alnico but what about ceramic steel that has been magnetized. I presume that is how most better pickups are made,ie,magnetized ceramic steel with a Gauss coil or whatever instead of a magnet,correct? Thanks.

[walterw]

"ceramic steel"? "gauss coil"? sorry, i have no idea what any of that is (sounds kinda star trek'y )

pickups will always use magnets, either alnico, ceramic ("ferrite" is another form of that, i think) or in more unusual cases, rare-earth magnets (fender's SCN stuff, or talkbass's own SGD pickups, which use neodymium).

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by maturanesa

I recently try some basses and realized that most of the cheap/crap basses are hotter than the quality ones. For example, a cheap Samick was hotter than a Fender. A chinese Cort too. (hotter a lot, maybe twice the signal). a chines Jackson too.
But why is this? cheap brands think "well, if the sound will be crap at least it would be loud", or what?

I presume it's because when you make a cheap pickup you just slap it together, but to make a pickup sound good, you have to "compromise" and "adjust" parameters to tweak in the tone to just the right way. Usually those kind of compromises are done at the expense of output.

Sometimes, though a cheapo does sound good, like my SX pickups. But even there, if you have them too close to the strings and "dig in" they tend to distort which has been called the "SX effect". So you need to move them away from the strings which tones down the output. So really it's just the same old compromise thing in action.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by klyph

I thought I read a long time ago that- all other things being equal (magnet material/strength, wind quality/guage, etc.)- FEWER winds on a polepiece equalled a hotter signal. Certainly in a high production situation, I would think fewer winds= less time a pickup spends on a winder= more pickups wound per hour (or shift)= cheaper pickups. Oh yeah, less copper too. This assumes that my assumption about winds is correct, and that the maker is renumerated on an hourly basis, both of which may be wrong (I've heard that most production work in Asia is paid by the piece). Is there a pickup winding expert lurking?

More winds = more output. Stronger magnets also gives more output. More output isn't better if it doesn't sound good however. Once you get past a certain point, the pickup is not so clear sounding, and the mids get bumped up and the highs start rolling off. In general lower output pickups have a wider frequency range, with a higher and less pronounced resonant peak.

Fender hasn't changed its pickups to much, and back when they were designed that's how hot pickups were.

Newer basses might have totally different and more modern designs, even if they are budget pickups made in Asia. So they may be louder, and may or may not sound all that great. Some of these pickups would sound better wound a little less.

Copper is about $18/pound. No one makes lower output pickups to save on magnet wire.

[asberrys]

walter that is what I meant when I said ceramic steel,ferrite. A gaussian coil is what I imagine they magnetize the ferrite with,esentially an electromagnet. Thanks

[MikeM]

Same reason Crappy TVs have really bright defaults. Brighter looks better in the store. Then you get it home and it burns your eyes out.

Take two basses and plug them into an amp without changing settings. Little Johnny and his Dad will pick the louder one 7 times out of 10..

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by asberrys

Obviously steel slugs are cheaper than Alnico but what about ceramic steel that has been magnetized. I presume that is how most better pickups are made,ie,magnetized ceramic steel with a Gauss coil or whatever instead of a magnet,correct? Thanks.

There is no such thing as "ceramic steel". There are poickups with ceramic magnets and steel poles. This is why you hear "ceramic and steel" as in the EMG CS.

Magnets used to be made from cobalt steel which can be magnetized, but it doesn't make a very god magnet.

Ceramic magnets aren't use because they are cheap. They are stronger than alnico in most applications, so you can wind the pickups a bit hotter while retaining highs.

But highly regarded pickups like Lane Poor and Alembic use ceramic magnets.