The definitive answer: do "boutique" capacitors affect tone in bass wiring?

[bongomania]

FWIW, I really think the market is too saturated with people making basic J plate setups. Some of them are even based out of high-volume shops that buy their parts at lower prices than you'll be able to get. There's even one or two that do fancy-color powdercoating of the plates and knobs.

If you want to stand out from the crowd, I really think you'll need to go active. As many onboard preamps as there are out there, I actually think there is significant room in the market in between passive harnesses and full-blown EQ preamps. For example, add a simple FET boost to a standard J plate, with a push-pull pot for on/off and gain control. Or add a simple buffered mixer between the pots, instead of the traditional blend pot or v/v pots. Most onboard preamps don't even have buffered blending! There are a couple of course, but they have EQ and a higher price tag.

Give it some thought.

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by bongomania

FWIW, I really think the market is too saturated with people making basic J plate setups. Some of them are even based out of high-volume shops that buy their parts at lower prices than you'll be able to get. There's even one or two that do fancy-color powdercoating of the plates and knobs.

If you want to stand out from the crowd, I really think you'll need to go active. As many onboard preamps as there are out there, I actually think there is significant room in the market in between passive harnesses and full-blown EQ preamps. For example, add a simple FET boost to a standard J plate, with a push-pull pot for on/off and gain control. Or add a simple buffered mixer between the pots, instead of the traditional blend pot or v/v pots. Most onboard preamps don't even have buffered blending! There are a couple of course, but they have EQ and a higher price tag.

Give it some thought.

PM'd.

[gnjpowell]

Boutique caps do sound much better - when the seller's cash-register goes "Cha-ching" !

[jimmy rocket]

Originally Posted by bongomania

1) The cap is a different value than the previous one, so it sounds different. On rare occasions you'll get somebody who swears they used the exact same value, but these caps have a tolerance range that means they are probably not the exact same value, they are just "within a range". Even in the cases where the caps really were extremely close in capacitive value, that leads us to...

Setting aside the exception bias that we all know and love, Bongo hit the nail on the head here. In a passive tone circuit where all the capacitor is doing is dumping signal to ground, the only possible empirically verifiable difference has to do with the actual value.

There may be (may be) some credence to the idea that in high voltage circuits different materials for capacitors and resistors make a qualitative difference, but that's because at those voltages tolerances can drift and parasitics and dissipation play a factor.

http://www.analog.com/library/analog...niques%20F.pdf
(some light reading in sec 9.2-9.5)

In a jazz bass wiring harness - no difference whatsoever.

I will say that I like the feel of those big CTS pots though. They add some heft that I like(which may also be confirmation bias)

I have also taken to using Mallory or Mojotone Dijon caps just because I like the way they fit in between the pots.

Here's a recent wiring job on a tele:



If you're looking for value to add to a pre-made wiring harness, nothing adds value like nice tidy wiring, quality (not trumped up mojo) components and

Perhaps your contribution to the game could be variety. Instead of churning out the same old harnesses, offer different cap/pot values with a good explanation of what that will do to the sound.

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by jimmy rocket

Setting aside the exception bias that we all know and love, Bongo hit the nail on the head here. In a passive tone circuit where all the capacitor is doing is dumping signal to ground, the only possible empirically verifiable difference has to do with the actual value.

There may be (may be) some credence to the idea that in high voltage circuits different materials for capacitors and resistors make a qualitative difference, but that's because at those voltages tolerances can drift and parasitics and dissipation play a factor.

http://www.analog.com/library/analog...niques%20F.pdf
(some light reading in sec 9.2-9.5)

In a jazz bass wiring harness - no difference whatsoever.

I will say that I like the feel of those big CTS pots though. They add some heft that I like(which may also be confirmation bias)

I have also taken to using Mallory or Mojotone Dijon caps just because I like the way they fit in between the pots.

Here's a recent wiring job on a tele:



If you're looking for value to add to a pre-made wiring harness, nothing adds value like nice tidy wiring, quality (not trumped up mojo) components and

Perhaps your contribution to the game could be variety. Instead of churning out the same old harnesses, offer different cap/pot values with a good explanation of what that will do to the sound.

All good suggestions! As far as passive I'd be looking to do harnesses that include parallel/series switching, blend pots, and varitone switches instead of tone controls.

I would like to learn how to make active controls like Bongomania mentioned (and I'm PM'ing him about it). I love doign wiring and want to find a niche to fit into. Even though there are lots of folks doing simple Jazz harnesses I think I could compete since I'd be doing it out of my home part-time and they're generally over priced, but I'd much rather do something interesting and unique!

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by fourstringbliss

I've been looking at Jazz bass wiring harnesses and wiring kits on Ebay and most of them have Sprague Orange Drop caps, and a few other (more expensive ones) have "oil and paper" caps. All of them claim that these more expensive caps will positively affect tone, but do they? Do the more expensive oil/paper or big orange drop 0.047uf caps give better tone than the $1 metal film 0.047uf caps I can get at Radio Shack?

Absolutely, categorically not. It's impossible.

When will we finally put this bubba nonsense to sleep?

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Bongolation

Absolutely, categorically not. It's impossible.

When will we finally put this bubba nonsense to sleep?

Judging from the responses to that YouTube demo, apparently never. People seem to believe they hear a difference even when there isn't one. I guess it's insecurity on the players part. They think they need magic caps or they wont get a god tone.

[pudge]

I only use boutique solder on my guitars

[Bongolation]

Originally Posted by drewfx

If you want a definitive answer you don't do a poll; you do some quantitative testing.

With a proper and well-controlled protocol.

That's the killer in bubba science.

I saw some YouTube "test" of this question which, though laborious and finding no appreciable difference, failed to measure the actual capacitances of the sample capacitors.

[BogeyBass]

orange drops are just plain Jane capacitors covered in orange epoxy. Back in the day....cheapest ones money could buy
now = most expensive gimmick money could buy

and there is more than one series depending on voltage needed
from 100 to 2000 volts not just oil and film, but the usual
metalized film, film and foil, polyester, polypropelene, and polystyrene.
so when you say "orangedrop" its pretty much worthless term other than the fact its probably twice as big as any other cap of similar value and cost 10X as much as any other.

Some of them are royal piece of #### caps. rated at 20% tolerance. which is the main importance if your looking to get the actual rated value.

even some of the "high quality" 2% caps are really not anywhere close to that over a certain temperature.
and they dont use standards for identifying that value, they use their own internal code , which makes it even more suspicious BS

[SGD Lutherie]

Yeah, most orange drops are polyester or polypropylene.

The real question is why would a paper and oil cap sound different? You have to think of what the cap is doing. Between its two terminals is a certain capacitance. It doesn't mater if it's a ceramic or PiO. A PiO is not doing anything different from a ceramic.

Now, if signal is going through them, you have ESR and even the transient response or ringing you might encounter.

But it wont make you bass sound different, and it especially wont do a damn thing with the pot on 10.

[Cameron Mc]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/aw3i01znk4...oneCapTest.mp3

Forgive the noodling. After this test, I will be doing more.

Each audio section is tone wide open/50%/100% roll off. 1974 p bass direct strung with black beauties.

Each cap FELT different under my fingers which was huge, each one sounded different. I'm sure each person will like one over the other.

I'll post the list and order once people get a chance to listen.

[mowburger]

wow a fool born every minute. In a passive tone shunt, the only thing a capacitor has an effect on is the amount of high end that goes to ground. If what is going thru the capacitor goes to ground, then you don't hear what is passing thru the cap. That part of signal is going to ground and you don't hear what goes to ground. How does this not make sense to people? The place where a capacitor would make a difference is in a treble bleed circuit, where what is being passed thru the cap is going to the amp. The parts of signal that go to ground do not get amplified, so you could not hear a diff of how that part of signal passed to ground, ONLY how much and at what cutoff freq. The ONLY thing that effects how much and at what freq on any given instrument would be the VALUE of capacitor AND POTr + where the pot is in it's throw.

The thing to do at this point is make your own caps, gold plate them and sell em to tone turds for $100 ea.

[Cameron Mc]

Are you referencing me? I take it you didn't listen to the audio file??

One opinion logged, anyone else?

[Cameron Mc]

First 4 caps are .047
Next 2 are .022
One more .047
And finally a .1

[SingleCutB]

No need for hot air and name calling. Just makes you look ignorant.
Cameron Mc's post is an audio clip that is the exact experiment asked about by the OP. I can clearly hear a difference b/t some of the caps 1-4 on the audio clip. Those are caps with the same value. Its subtle but some people thrive on subtle...the difference between good and great can be subtle.

So what say you guys? Am I a fool for believing an experiment I can hear for myself?

[FunkMetalBass]

Originally Posted by Cameron Mc

First 4 caps are .047
Next 2 are .022
One more .047
And finally a .1

Can you take measurements to get the actual values of the caps?

[two fingers]

Oy. Don't even get me started on the things people perceive better tone results from. Everything from silk windings and wood finishes to cloth wire and cables. If only they spent more time practicing.......

[Thecomedian]

Originally Posted by bongomania

Here's the thing--whenever somebody swaps a capacitor in their bass, two things happen every time:
1) The cap is a different value than the previous one, so it sounds different. On rare occasions you'll get somebody who swears they used the exact same value, but these caps have a tolerance range that means they are probably not the exact same value, they are just "within a range". Even in the cases where the caps really were extremely close in capacitive value, that leads us to...
2) Expectation Bias. We think we will get a certain result, and by gum we get that result! We paid $15 for a single oil-in-paper cap, and we have heard from tone hounds that we will get amazing tone with it, and wouldn't you know, when we listen to it the tone is amazing! Waaaay different from the crummy old ceramic cap that the bass came with. It's all in our heads though. But because it is in our heads, we perceive it as reality, how's that for a kick in the pants!

Now, I'm not saying there is never any difference--there may sometimes be some difference, possibly. What I am saying is that when people say "I swapped in an orange drop cap and it sounds way better, and I've been playing bass professionally for 100 years so I should know", you can't actually take those claims seriously most of the time.

That's why it's good to set up a more clinical test before soldering it in. get a switch to change capacitors in the loop, or some such, and you can close your eyes and test it, or record it and listen to the recording.

[Cameron Mc]

Why do I get the feeling people are upset because there is a tonal difference to be heard?

We strive to wear the clothes we want, listen to the music we want, eat what we want, drive the car we want, PLAY THE BASS WE WANT... What's the problem with finding the correct recipe for tone or better yet, why angrily impose limitations on people? People customize coffee for the flavor they like, yet no one suggests they grow their own beans and milk their own cows. Regardless of my practice acumen, I desire my bass to sound a certain way, and I have discovered that capacitors do offer tonal variation. Why is that such a big deal? This is so interesting and bizarre to me.

Yes I can measure the caps individually. I think.

This is how the test was conducted:
Desoldered the old cap
Soldered alligator clips with wire to the tone pot
Swapped caps in and out after recording briefly
Looked at spectral analysis to see what was changing
Chose the best sounding three to my ears from the recording.
Wired those three up again, and made a final choice.

I didn't intend to post the audio as its clearly a rough recording, full of mistakes and noodling, but I figured the audio would speak for itself, and would provide a good reference to take speculation out of this and start hearing what reality sounds like, not perception or "paper science"