The definitive answer: do "boutique" capacitors affect tone in bass wiring?

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by aproud1

I really dislike vintage wire...

I hate the cloth covered stuff.

Now I do get my sound from vintage pickgaurds and screws. Theres tone in that rust and old dried up sweat...

Hats. You need vintage hats. The funny thing about "vintage" is back then we had crappy amps and no one could hear the bass. Now that the bass is up front in music people want to be retro. It's much better now.

[uOpt]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

The same as modern caps. They are leaky, they have series resistance, etc. The difference is the old ones didn't have very tight tolerances. So it might be listed as .047µF and might actually read something different.

If the old style caps were better parts, we would still be using them in all our electronic gear.

No, as I said earlier, the difference I think I hear is still there after I hand-pick one of many ceramic disks that reads the same value on a capacitance meter.

The problem here is that although the capacitance is then the same the other properties are not.

[aproud1]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

\
Hats. You need vintage hats.

The funny thing about "vintage" is back then we had crappy amps and no one could hear the bass. Now that the bass is up front in music people want to be retro. It's much better now.

Thats how you get "that sound"...

Vintage sound to me is what you hear on the record which I would imagine was mostly recorded direct (for electric bass) so I guess I like nice tube pre amps... enter Mesa D180

[SGD Lutherie]

Ceramic disks are very leaky and often microphonic.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by aproud1

Vintage sound to me is what you hear on the record which I would imagine was mostly recorded direct (for electric bass) so I guess I like nice tube pre amps... enter Mesa D180

I have a Mesa 400+. Nice sounding amp, but too heavy to lug around. Now I have a hartke LH500, and the tube preamp in that sounds very nice.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by uOpt

Except that the old style big capacitors have other electrical properties than just capacitance. That's why they "sound" different.

The only, and I mean ONLY, relevant property in THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION is capacitance. And thus, in this particular application, they cannot sound different. They just simply can't.
If you understood why several of us are saying this you'd, well, understand. : )

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

The only, and I mean ONLY, relevant property in THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION is capacitance. And thus, in this particular application, they cannot sound different. They just simply can't.
If you understood why several of us are saying this you'd, well, understand. : )

+1

The placebo affect also has to be accounted for. If you really want to test caps, then you can't know which cap you are listening to. because as soon as you do, your preconceived notion of what it should sound like will tale over. Then people will even play differently, without them even knowing it, to get the tone they are expecting.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

+1

The placebo affect also has to be accounted for. If you really want to test caps, then you can't know which cap you are listening to. .

I hear ya, but part of the problem here is that we are not actually 'listening to caps.' As you know, we are listening to the portion of the signal which bypasses the cap. This fact appears to be lost on some folks.

[uOpt]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

The only, and I mean ONLY, relevant property in THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION is capacitance.

You can't be serious. Your think that inductance and resistance, different at different frequencies, simply disappear from the circuit because it is "THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION"? They are still there.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by uOpt

You can't be serious. Your think that inductance and resistance, different at different frequencies, simply disappear from the circuit because it is "THIS PARTICULAR APPLICATION"? They are still there.

I'm quite serious. Those things would matter if the cap was in the signal path, but it ain't. That's the whole point.

[uOpt]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

I'm quite serious. Those things would matter if the cap was in the signal path, but it ain't. That's the whole point.

How can you say that a resistance across hot to ground doesn't matter? The pickup we have there is a LPF on it's own and if we are talking passive pickups here it picks up that load. That's the reason why the volume pot causes a sound change.

[two fingers]

Here's the thing OP. I too believe it's a bunch of marketing crap. But marketing crap is what SELLS things. I used to sell pianos. A wise old salesman (who could sell a struck match) told me that "People don't buy pianos, cars, TV's or widgets. They buy STORIES." And he was correct. I would tell the "story" of the family sitting around that piano listening to little Suzy playing and how proud grandma would be. I would tell the HISTORY of the manufacturer and his sons who took over the business in 1857 (even though most of the pianos sold today are made in China by people who never met anyone in the original family and don't know the history of the company). And I sold pianos my friend. Lots of them. I don't even PLAY piano, but I sold a tons of them.

"What the heck is your point Two Fingers?" My point is, get you some Orange Drops, some cloth wire, and anything else that comes with it's own share of mojo and SELL THE STORY. Heck, maybe you could put a nitro finish on the pots and a tiny piece of tort plastic just for good measure. It doesn't matter! People are NOT going to buy your product if you simply say "You don't need and Orange Drop." They are going to buy what THEY think will make them sound like Jamerson, JPJ, or anyone else they have in mind. It would take little or no story telling abilities to get them to believe that you have developed the product that will get it done! Does that offend your sensibilities? You are probably going into the wrong business if it does. Best of luck either way.

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by uOpt

How can you say that a resistance across hot to ground doesn't matter? The pickup we have there is a LPF on it's own and if we are talking passive pickups here it picks up that load. That's the reason why the volume pot causes a sound change.

Although capacitive reactance is measured in Ohms, it's technically not resistance. In fact, nothing ever "passes through" a capacitor. There is either a gap, or a dielectric material that sees to that. So, how could a cap have any affect on tone if nothing ever really passes through it? A cap, by design, stops the flow of electrons. It gathers a charge on both sides (positive on one side and negative on the other) and acts like a resistor (kind of), but nothing EVER passes THROUGH it.

So, to say that a capacitor affects tone is like saying that the brick wall between my yard and yours makes my grass grow greener. It just isn't so.

(Unless, of course as mentioned by one other post, it becomes leaky, and that's another topic altogether. My post assumes the cap is functioning properly.)

[AlecRob]

What are the best capacitors for metal?

[two fingers]

Originally Posted by AlecRob

What are the best capacitors for metal?

I was wondering when you would swing by.

[AlecRob]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I was wondering when you would swing by.

You were wondering about me personally? That's a bit odd because I rarely post here and I'm not exactly very well-known on talkbass...

[two fingers]

I just figured you were the guy who usually throws in the "best whatever for metal" question into just about EVERY SINGLE THREAD here. Maybe there is more than one of you guys....

[AlecRob]

Originally Posted by two fingers

I just figured you were the guy who usually throws in the "best whatever for metal" question into just about EVERY SINGLE THREAD here. Maybe there is more than one of you guys....

Nah dude, I've only pulled the "best x for metal" line like once or twice on this forum.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by uOpt

How can you say that a resistance across hot to ground doesn't matter? The pickup we have there is a LPF on it's own and if we are talking passive pickups here it picks up that load. That's the reason why the volume pot causes a sound change.

The cap does not present a 'resistance' between hot and ground. It merely provides a path for high frequencies to follow to ground. The rest of the signal - the part that actually makes it to your amp - never sees the cap. It's really that simple.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by uOpt

How can you say that a resistance across hot to ground doesn't matter? The pickup we have there is a LPF on it's own and if we are talking passive pickups here it picks up that load. That's the reason why the volume pot causes a sound change.

As you turn down the tone control pot from ten, the major effect is changing the resistive loading on the resonant circuit. This is because the impedance of the capacitor in the range of the resonance is a lot less than the pot value. As the pot gets closer to zero, the capacitor becomes important, but the initial effect is just resistive loading from the pot, not the cap.