The definitive answer: do "boutique" capacitors affect tone in bass wiring?

[jbrew73]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

I'm quite serious. Those things would matter if the cap was in the signal path, but it ain't. That's the whole point.

How can one say the cap is not in the signal path? Sure it is. Its Not series but it is in parallel with it .

If a sh**ty cap was in series with the signal and only let sh***y sound threw then that same sh***y cap in parallel to ground would let all the sh*t go to ground and we would be left with the most wonderful sounding bass ever.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by jbrew73

How can one say the cap is not in the signal path? Sure it is. Its Not series but it is in parallel with it .

.

Hey man - If you don't wanna get it, you don't wanna get it. Ima go home now.

[jbrew73]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Hey man - If you don't wanna get it, you don't wanna get it. Ima go home now.

Hey man- if I don't get it please explain further to educate me on the subject.

[dmusic148]

Originally Posted by jbrew73

Hey man- if I don't get it please explain further to educate me on the subject.

Please refer to posts 7,12,25,27,32,34,69,74 and 80.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by jbrew73

How can one say the cap is not in the signal path? Sure it is. Its Not series but it is in parallel with it .

If a sh**ty cap was in series with the signal and only let sh***y sound threw then that same sh***y cap in parallel to ground would let all the sh*t go to ground and we would be left with the most wonderful sounding bass ever.

It's parallel to the signal. So the part of the signal you hear does not pass though the cap. The part that does pass through the cap is shunted to ground.

[jbrew73]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

It's parallel to the signal. So the part of the signal you hear does not pass though the cap. The part that does pass through the cap is shunted to ground.

So what side are you on? that the cap matters or doesn't? Im just saying what doesn't go to ground is whats being heard. Thats all. My ears suck anyway so i probably couldn't hear any difference between brands.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by jbrew73

So what side are you on? Im just saying what doesn't go to ground is whats being heard. Thats all. My ears suck anyway so i probably couldn't hear any difference between brands.

I'm saying the tonal difference between types of cap is negligible for tone controls, and the signal does not pass through it.

I've used everything from cheap ceramics, the little green chicklet films caps from Radio Shack, so nice quality film caps, and even tried some paper in oil. As long as its the value I want, they all sound the same.

I currently use these in my guitars and basses:

[jbrew73]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

I'm saying the tonal difference between types of cap is negligible for tone controls, and the signal does not pass through it.

I've used everything from cheap ceramics, the little green chicklet films caps from Radio Shack, so nice quality film caps, and even tried some paper in oil. As long as its the value I want, they all sound the same.

I currently use these in my guitars and basses:

I agree 100% with what you said.

Maybe what i was saying earlier didn't come out right.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by jbrew73

I agree 100% with what you said.

Maybe what i was saying earlier didn't come out right.

Probably. But that's the problem with forums and stuff.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

I'm saying the tonal difference between types of cap is negligible for tone controls, and the signal does not pass through it.

I've used everything from cheap ceramics, the little green chicklet films caps from Radio Shack, so nice quality film caps, and even tried some paper in oil. As long as its the value I want, they all sound the same.

I currently use these in my guitars and basses:

Note that David said "negligible" difference. That is NOT the same as "zero". And I agree with what he said. Bad cheap parts are not what you want for for a number of reasons (microphonic, wrong values, or leakage: will at minimum change WHERE on the tone settings a certain sound resides), but in my experience Radio Shack level or above are all just fine. Those caps David is using are obviously great. Small, quality, and stable value low leakage caps that will last forever.

But that's me and David. What do we know? Obviously there are tortured sensitive musicians out there with ears that can hear nuances to tone that we can't even begin to comprehend! What about them? Well, first off let me point out that they really aren't nuts (well I mean because they hear cap differences). But to a man I guarantee that from my experience they will detect some tiny difference that none of the rest of us can hear and call it "night and day". That's just the nature of the beast.

So, what in the world are they HEARING? I'll tell you. They are hearing DIELECTRIC PROPERTIES! Here's how a capacitor works. It is two conductive plates with something non-conductive in between. It COULD be vacuum. That would work but you'd need a wagon to haul your tone cap around. So in general it's a plastic material termed a "dielectric". The way a dielectric works is it contains polar molecules that are free to rotate around in an electric field. This rotation is usually quite fast which means it won't cause problems until frequencies are QUITE high. But in essence it's possible that people are sensing the "tail" of the curves down at audio frequencies which manifests itself as VERY slight changes in tone. For example do the oil molecules rotate as fast as say those in tiny baked ceramic caps? Probably not, which is why you hear reports of paper in oil having a different tone. But I'm sorry these effects are STILL VERY minor.

Usually, the people going through this "how does a given dielectric "sound" exercise are people building things like high-end microphone preamps. Note that voltages in that case are often much higher and wide bandwidth where no changes at all to the original signal is of prime importance. Modding a "tone" on an instrument is a FAR cruder operation!

You might be able to actually measure dielectric differences by carefully measuring capacitance vs frequency over the audio and near-audio range, but clearly the things you find will be very small and difficult to measure. And who is to say that the paper in oil is not the tone you seek? But I"m not going to fuss with this kind of thing. If I want a tone change I'll change the value of my radio shack caps. That's why my tone controls have a switch with three values. Some even put in a huge rotary to get MANY values.

So why would anyone fuss over some tiny tone difference that only a few gifted people can hear? So long as the cap doesn't short, give microphonic signals or melt wax all over the inside of your bass why bother? I guess because some people are like that. But I'm not one.

[grendle]

A cap is a cap. The only difference would be the tolerance. The old caps are looser tolerance than the new ones. So if you have say a 20 uf cap that actually reads 24 uf (loose) instead of 20.2 uf (modern , tight tolerance) they might sound slightly different. But a cap is still a cap. Spend your money how you like though.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by bassbenj

For example do the oil molecules rotate as fast as say those in tiny baked ceramic caps? Probably not, which is why you hear reports of paper in oil having a different tone. But I'm sorry these effects are STILL VERY minor.

Right, and the thing that tips me off that the player is NOT hearing the cap is when they say something like the tone was warmer and fuller with the tone control on 10. At that point you are not hearing the cap, you are heating some resistance from the tone pot.

The reason why I harp on this so much is because some unscrupulous companies are selling new film caps that cost about $0.50 posing as old bumble bee, or other paper in oil caps for like $50 for a piece. The false belief that these will make your instrument sound better (and it's mostly guys that play Les Pauls) is being exploited.








Those are Wesco 32PL Polypropylene film caps. Costs about $0.50 cents a piece. Gibson was selling them for $113 a pair just because they had fake bumble bee plastic covers!

The same is true of some of the paper in oil caps. They are not made like the old ones, they just look like the old ones. So not only will paper in oil caps not make your instrument sound better, there are just Polypropylene film caps, just like the ones from Radio Shack (which might be polyester film caps).

Here's a thread showing a Luxe Grey Tiger and a Gibson Repro Bumblebee:

http://www.mylespaul.com/forums/tone...xe-gibson.html



You already saw the Bumble Bee. Here's the Luxe:



Fake. Not what you were expecting, right? So, just because of that, I say avoid the boutique caps.

And while orange drops are perfectly good caps, you don't need to spend even that much on a tone cap.

[Signs]

I am going to put Dimarzio Model J pickups in my Squier Jazz bass in the next couple weeks. By the serial number it was made in China and is only a year or two old. I bought it new. Does anyone know what size capacitor is in it? I was thinking of putting in the .047 cap, so it would be close to the newer jazz basses, if that would give me a slightly deeper sound. My friend has an electronics business so he can get me whatever I need. Is this the right Sprague Vishay cap 0.0047 225P47296X 0.80 [20.32] 0.58 [14.73] 0.25 [6.35]?

I would like a slightly deeper rock tone.

And I would like to get a cap so I have it when I change the pickups. I suppose I could get extras of different values, but I probably would not use them. I think I like how a P bass sounds better than a jazz bass, so that may be the next step just to get a P bass, but I thought the pickups and capacitor would be a cheap mod to this one for now.

[SGD Lutherie]

Just use the cap that is in it. It is probably .047µF, as that is the most common value for a bass. The cap is not going to give you a "deeper rock tone" but the pickups will.

All the cap does is remove high end when you turn the tone control down. When the control is on 10, it does nothing. If you want to remove high end the cap that cake with the bass will work just fine. And so will the tone controls on your amp.

[Signs]

Sounds good. Thanks for the reply.

I have read all the posts now, and your explanation makes sense. It's hard to get past all the voodoo from all the past articles I have read by various people who talk about the different "warmth" etc etc etc between caps!

[khutch]

Originally Posted by jbrew73

How can one say the cap is not in the signal path? Sure it is. Its Not series but it is in parallel with it.

You are right. The current the capacitor conducts does flow to ground and not out to the amplifier. However before it flows to ground it passes through the pickup impedance and through whatever portion of the volume control resistance is in series with the signal path. The capacitor current creates a voltage drop in those series impedances and that modifies the total voltage passed on to the amplifier. The capacitor current most definitely does modify the guitar's signal even though it is in parallel with the signal path. In fact this is exactly what allows the tone capacitor to modify the tone of the instrument. It is just not the way people normally look at it but you will never understand the reason why a capacitor technology choice could make a difference in tone until you understand this fact from circuit theory 101.

Ideally a capacitor is a linear device and as such its effect on the tone of a bass is entirely determined by its value as others have said. Normal dielectric leakage is also linear, just a resistance in parallel with the capacitor, and while it can effect the tone just like any other resistive load can, the resistance of all the capacitors one would normally use in a bass is so high that it can be ignored.

Real world capacitors can also exhibit a variety of non-linear effects however. These are not desirable in most applications because they produce distortion by means of the mechanism noted above but of course distortion in an electronic instrument is often desired. Most capacitor technologies will exhibit little or no distortion at the voltage levels common in bass guitars. If you want capacitor induced distortion you should use the dreaded power supply grade ceramic capacitors, especially those with a 6.8 volt rating. If you want a specific capacitance value you will have to check a bunch with a meter to find the value you want since they have a wide tolerance. It is unlikely that any other kind of capacitor would produce any discernable difference in sound for any reason other than capacitance value. No matter how skilled the listener. Even though you measured the value....

The only possible exception is paper-oil capacitors. I have been designing very high specification electronic products for a variety of end uses for 38 years and never has anyone suggested that we use paper-oil capacitors, they are just crap. So, maybe they too distort, I would not know having never seen any outside of tube radios from the 1940s and 1950s. And then it would seem that many of the ones on the market today are fakes. Truly some folks do hear with their eyes, it would seem.

Ken

[ctmullins]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

[12bass]

Can the type of capacitor sending signal to ground affect the tone of an instrument? I would say yes, at least somewhat. I've found that polypropylene and polystyrene capacitors sound clearer and more open than other types. This suggests that they are a little more transparent to the highest frequencies. Thus, by implication, this suggests that such capacitors would also send a little more of the extreme highs to ground when used in a passive tone control circuit. I've actually tested this in practice, and used polypropylenes in a LPF when I wanted to "round off" more of the extreme highs. The polypropylene capacitor removed more of the buzzy edge from a distorted signal.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by 12bass

I've found that polypropylene and polystyrene capacitors sound clearer and more open than other types.

With your tone knob set where? On zero? That will never be more open sounding. On 10 the cap has no affect on the tone.

On the other hand, poly film caps are the most accurate types of caps.

[12bass]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

With your tone knob set where? On zero? That will never be more open sounding. On 10 the cap has no affect on the tone.

On the other hand, poly film caps are the most accurate types of caps.

Oh... wasn't too clear there. I meant that polypropylene/polystyrene caps sound more open when passing a signal through them, as is the case when they are used a coupling capacitors between parts of a circuit. If they are more open sounding, that suggests that they are just a little bit better at passing high frequencies than other types. And by implication that would mean that they can pass a little more of the extreme highs to ground when used in a passive tone control circuit. Another capacitor type might leave a bit more of the upper treble in the signal rather than shorting it to ground.