Do P/J's have output level issues?

tranceFusion · #1 06-15-2009, 01:55 PM

I was planning to assemble a P and have been considering whether to put in a bridge pickup. I seem to see alot of people complaining of output level issues with their P/Js (one is much louder than the other), or difficulty in retaining the P tone due to additional resistances in the wiring scheme.

Does adding a bridge pickup greatly complicate the matter? Is the output level issue a common problem?

SGD Lutherie · #2 06-15-2009, 02:09 PM

The P pickup is often louder, if they are stock output Jazz pickups at the bridge. You might get them more balanced if you use a hotter Jazz pickup.

The P would sound exactly like a P if you turn down the J, and vice versa.

You can also use two P pickups. I had a bass like that and it sounded pretty cool.

**line6man** · #3 06-15-2009, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

The P would sound exactly like a P if you turn down the J, and vice versa.

No it wouldn't, unless you had a 3 way switch to remove the Jazz pickup's pot...

Rocky McDougall · #4 06-15-2009, 02:21 PM

The bridge pickup has low output because of it's position. The vibration of the strings, that close to the bridge, is far less than up by the neck. On a P/J you have the option of full neck pup or full bridge pup or a blend of the two. I have several P/J's and I like them. The bridge pup, to me, does not sound good by itself, but I like to blend it with the P pickup.

**line6man** · #5 06-15-2009, 02:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rocky McDougall

The bridge pickup has low output because of it's position. The vibration of the strings, that close to the bridge, is far less than up by the neck.

That is true, however, it's actually sort of the opposite of what your saying. The bridge pickup isn't weak, the neck pickup is overly hot.

A traditional Jazz bass has the bridge pickup wound hotter than the neck pickup to balance out the output of the two pickup, but a split-coil P pickup is far hotter than a Jazz basses neck pickup, due to the nature of it's construction...
So while the string output is weaker at the bridge location, bridge pickups are usually overwound to balance out with the neck pickup, but the neck pickup in the case of a P/J is overly hot compared with what is normally paired up with the bridge pickup.

SGD Lutherie · #6 06-15-2009, 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by line6man

That is true, however, it's actually sort of the opposite of what your saying. The bridge pickup isn't weak, the neck pickup is overly hot.

The P is would hotter, but Jazz bridge pickups can sound thin even on Jazz basses.

Quote:

A traditional Jazz bass has the bridge pickup wound hotter than the neck pickup to balance out the output of the two pickup...

Not really... they are both wound with the same number of turns. The bridge pickup is slightly wider, so the resistance will be higher because there is more wire on it, but that doesn't make it louder. Output level is a product of the number of turns, and not the DC resistance.

Quote:

So while the string output is weaker at the bridge location, bridge pickups are usually overwound to balance out with the neck pickup, but the neck pickup in the case of a P/J is overly hot compared with what is normally paired up with the bridge pickup.

I agree that bridge pickups need to be wound hotter. I do that as well.

tranceFusion · #7 06-15-2009, 03:14 PM

So basically if I get a set of pickups wound specifically for a P/J configuration (does this exist?) and implement a 3-way switch to skip the 2nd pot, I will be good to go?

Floridabwoy · #8 06-15-2009, 03:17 PM

Line 6.... you rock man. Even though this is not my thread I am thankful that you always a wealth of knowledge!

I am going to throw one of these in my bridge
http://www.wdmusic.com/split_tube_ja...ar_pickup.html

w. a three way switch in the next week or so. I will keep you guys posted.

**line6man** · #9 06-15-2009, 05:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranceFusion

So basically if I get a set of pickups wound specifically for a P/J configuration (does this exist?) and implement a 3-way switch to skip the 2nd pot, I will be good to go?

Well, the problem with matched P/J sets is that the P pickup doesn't sound like an "authentic" Precision bass when the P is soloed.

When you combine a P and a J, they sound great soloed, but when combined, their outputs don't match.
With matched P/J sets, usually the J is overwound and the P is underwound, in an attempt to balance out the outputs.
This means that the pickups have a good blend, but they don't sound quite right when soloed.

If you want an uncompromised Precision tone, you are going to have to pair up regular P and J pickups and just deal with the imbalance of pickup outputs.

Personally, i am against the idea of overwound Jazz pickups, but it would probably be best to pick the hottest Jazz pickup you can to go with the regular P if you intend to blend the pickups.

**line6man** · #10 06-15-2009, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Floridabwoy

Line 6.... you rock man. Even though this is not my thread I am thankful that you always a wealth of knowledge!

Thanks for the kind words.

tranceFusion · #11 06-15-2009, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by line6man

If you want an uncompromised Precision tone, you are going to have to pair up regular P and J pickups and just deal with the imbalance of pickup outputs..

Does it really make a difference when blended anyway? Isn't it only going to be noticeable if you are going from P-only to J-only?

WarriorJoe7 · #12 06-15-2009, 05:51 PM

Raise the jazz pickup, lower the p pickup. Make sure the jazz pickup is not too high by looking at 2 things. Press all 4 strings down at the last fret and make sure that it is not touching the jazz pickup. As a matter of fact you probably should have a good 1/8 inch or more clearance or else you will get a chorus warbly effect. Balance them by lowering the p pickup if needed.

On another note I usually slant my pickups so that the g side is closer to the strings. This evens out the volume across the strings for me.

WarriorJoe7 · #13 06-15-2009, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by line6man

Well, the problem with matched P/J sets is that the P pickup doesn't sound like an "authentic" Precision bass when the P is soloed.

you can actually get around this by having an on/off switch for the jazz pickup that actually disconnects the j pickup.

**line6man** · #14 06-15-2009, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WarriorJoe7

you can actually get around this by having an on/off switch for the jazz pickup that actually disconnects the j pickup.

Read the paragraph below the part your quoted...

The problem of the P pickup being muddied up by the Jazz's pot can be fixed by using a 3 way pickup selector switch, however, i was referring to the fact that the P pickups found in matched P/J sets can be underwound to better match the Jazz pickup. (The Jazz pickup also being overwound.)

**line6man** · #15 06-15-2009, 08:28 PM

Hey guys, i just gave myself an insane idea...

I had Curtis Novak build me a custom double Jazz bass humbucker which combined two Jazz bass pickups.
In single coil mode, i get a completely uncompromised single coil tone, but in humbucker mode, i run that coil tapped, along with the second coil which is underwound. This way the coils each put out about half the output of a regular Jazz pickup, so in series, they add up to roughly the same as the output from the single coil mode.

Has anyone ever thought of doing some kind of coil tap system with a P/J setup?

You could have a regular P bass pickup tapped at the point where the output matches the Jazz pickup, and the have the Jazz pickup overwound, but tapped at the same portion that a traditional Jazz pickup would stop.
You could setup a 3PDT switch to change between "normal" winding for soloing, and "matched" winding for blending.

Have i gone insane with unrealistic ideas, or does that sound like something cool?

jellymax · #16 06-15-2009, 08:30 PM

i agree about raising the bridge pickup & lowering the P pickup. there is though, another issue, which is noise. A P pickup will not properly cancel hum from the jazz/bridge pickup.
i recommend a split coil (hum cancelling) jazz pickup for the bridge.

i have a Dimarzio model J in my PJ bass. it is extremely ballsy sounding, plus hum
cancelling. way more low end then a stk jazz pickup...

pasta4lnch · #17 06-15-2009, 08:36 PM

fwiw my hotrodded P is supposed to have pups that address the volume issue. it doesnt. still a major issue - it's a bummer because i wanted to build a p/j w/ a mini toggle on/off for the J - that would give me the 2 bass sound I always use. my ultimate bass . . .
i'm thinking my next bass is gonna be just a P

Revvv · #18 06-15-2009, 08:58 PM

I have a PJ and it's my primary bass. The sound and output is incredible.

walterw · #19 06-15-2009, 09:11 PM

it's always struck me that the purpose of the J in a P+J setup is just to color the P pickup, mostly by scooping out the mids. as such, compromising the tone of the pickups by underwinding the P and overwinding the J is beside the point, as the J pickup isn't meant to be run by itself.

Rocky McDougall · #20 06-15-2009, 10:07 PM

On my P/J, I have the Nordstrand set and the controls are Vol/Tone + Vol/Tone. I have never been concerned that the J pup is a little thinner than the P pup. I just set the volume on each at the level desired. Only on certain songs do I use the Jazz pup soloed. 90% of the time I use the P at 75% and the J at 25%. That is the combination that I am most happy with.