Humcancelling or Single Coil Jazz Pick-ups & Why

[Federighi]

Thanks for your input!

[line6man]

For what application?

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by line6man

For what application?

Agreed.

For me, though, hum is the devil incarnate so I could never bring myself to own a bass with singles unless it had some sort of hum eliminating mechanism (like Xotic's).

[randysmojo]

If hum cancelling pickups can be found that produce the desired tone, why not eliminate hum?

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

For me, though, hum is the devil incarnate so I could never bring myself to own a bass with singles unless it had some sort of hum eliminating mechanism (like Xotic's).

+1

Hum is not music. It's interference.

There are lots of good sounding noise canceling Jazz pickups. If they don't sound exactly like a single coil, who cares? There aren't any single correct tones from a Jazz bass.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by line6man

For what application?

The music making applications?

How is hum ever necessary for what you are playing?

[line6man]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

The music making applications?

How is hum ever necessary for what you are playing?

The OP did not give any description of what kind of tone he wanted. How can you determine whether you want single coils or humbuckers if you don't know what kind of tone you're after?

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by line6man

The OP did not give any description of what kind of tone he wanted. How can you determine whether you want single coils or humbuckers if you don't know what kind of tone you're after?

There are a lot of hum canceling Jazz pickups that sound like single coils. There are far fewer hum canceling Jazz pickups that sound like humbuckers. Pretty much none.

What little differences between a real single coil and a hum canceling single coil you would hear side by side is lost as soon as it's in the mix. Plus many people keep both pickups on to hum cancel, so then they are limited sound wise. You might as well have a single pickup bass.

Therefore the question should be do you want hum or not.

[Federighi]

Thanks for all the input so far everybody! Sorry if the original post was lacking information, as I have very little experience with "jazz" style bass guitars.
I'm looking to put either style of pickup into a Fender jazz upgraded with Sadowsky preamp/ pickups. What I've gathered so far is that using straight single coil(s) will achieve "better" tone, but hum sucks.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Federighi

What I've gathered so far is that using straight single coil(s) will achieve "better" tone, but hum sucks.

No, not a better tone. Sometimes a little brighter, but that's about it. You can get the same tone as a single coil with a lot of the hum canceling jazz style pickups on the market.

There may be a slight difference, but not as great of a difference as between some real single coil Jazz pickups.

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

No, not a better tone. Sometimes a little brighter, but that's about it. You can get the same tone as a single coil with a lot of the hum canceling jazz style pickups on the market.

There may be a slight difference, but not as great of a difference as between some real single coil Jazz pickups.

Agreed. What I think most folks hear is the difference between entire basses rather than the pickups alone. If you compare a single coil equipped Fender Jazz to a older, Bartolini stacked jazz equipped Fodera Emperor, you're probably going to hear a pretty massive difference and not all of it can be attributed to the just pickups.

[Federighi]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

No, not a better tone. Sometimes a little brighter, but that's about it. You can get the same tone as a single coil with a lot of the hum canceling jazz style pickups on the market.

There may be a slight difference, but not as great of a difference as between some real single coil Jazz pickups.

Do you have any experience with Sadowsky's J pickups & why are single coils still marketed if humcancelling are an equal, if not superior product?

[narud]

Originally Posted by Kwesi

Agreed. What I think most folks hear is the difference between entire basses rather than the pickups alone. If you compare a single coil equipped Fender Jazz to a older, Bartolini stacked jazz equipped Fodera Emperor, you're probably going to hear a pretty massive difference and not all of it can be attributed to the just pickups.

not agreed with either of you. but, you guys arent really fans of those sounds anyway. if you like modern day basses, than singles dont matter. i like fenders, i like single coils. while the humcancelling pickups sound good if thats what youre after, none capture want single coils do. if the argument is the same as the wood doesnt matter deal in the basses forum because the differences get lost in the mix than pick up up tuba or something because its all low farting sounds to the audience anyway.

[Kwesi]

Originally Posted by narud

not agreed with either of you. but, you guys arent really fans of those sounds anyway. if you like modern day basses, than singles dont matter. i like fenders, i like single coils. while the humcancelling pickups sound good if thats what youre after, none capture want single coils do. if the argument is the same as the wood doesnt matter deal in the basses forum because the differences get lost in the mix than pick up up tuba or something because its all low farting sounds to the audience anyway.

I actually do like the single coil sound. That said, I don't like it enough that I'd be willing to deal with the hum. I definitely won't say that there's no difference or that the difference is totally insignificant because that would be false but I really do think that some humcanceling pups get really close to the single coil sound.

I actually went to a local music store and got my hands on a 2010 Fender American Deluxe Jazz. Just for the heck of it I decided to grab a two American Standard Jazzes that I liked and compare them all with the Deluxe in passive mode and the tone wide open on all three. They all sounded very similar. Again, there were differences but in this case, they weren't very pronounced at all. I know that's an anecdotal example but it's about all I've got.

[line6man]

Originally Posted by Federighi

why are single coils still marketed if humcancelling are an equal, if not superior product?

First off, humbuckers are not superior, only different.

There are a multitude of reasons why people prefer singles, mainly, to achieve tones not possible with multiple-coil pickups, and "because that's how Leo did it."

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by narud

while the humcancelling pickups sound good if thats what youre after, none capture want single coils do.

I think plenty of them do. The only difference between the two is that hum canceling pickups will often have a darker tone with more midrange.

But there is nothing intrinsically different about a single coil pickup than a double coil pickup. They can be made to sound the same. The rest is people's conceptions. In a blind test people wouldn't know.

If you already have your mind made up that none of them capture some quality, then you won't try them and won't dial in that tone.

[TapyTap]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

+1
There are lots of good sounding noise canceling Jazz pickups. If they don't sound exactly like a single coil, who cares? There aren't any single correct tones from a Jazz bass.

Speaking of such matters, how are those Jazz Sidewinders coming along?

[Nedmundo]

I'm with David and Kwesi on this one. I love Jazz basses, but hate the hum, and IMO the good hum-canceling pickups designed to emulate single coils get really close. They lose a little high end "air" and "sparkle" compared to singles, but if you roll off the treble a bit anyway, you won't notice this difference. They might also sound a little less "open" in the lows, but I wouldn't swear to it, and if so it's a more subtle difference to my ears. I have noiseless Fralins in a 2003 Fender four, Nordstrand NJ5FS in a 2008 Jazz V, and DiMarzio Area J in a G&L JB. They're all excellent, with the Fralins and DiMarzios sounding closer to vintage-voiced single coils IMO. I have no reason to tolerate or try to manage the hum.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

I think plenty of them do. The only difference between the two is that hum canceling pickups will often have a darker tone with more midrange.

But there is nothing intrinsically different about a single coil pickup than a double coil pickup. They can be made to sound the same. The rest is people's conceptions. In a blind test people wouldn't know.

If you already have your mind made up that none of them capture some quality, then you won't try them and won't dial in that tone.

I say if Leo invented the single coil pickup to have hum then you can't do better than to pay a lot of money to get a vintage hummer!

Just kidding. But first you say there is no difference and then you say "the only difference is..." Well which is it? I'll tell you which it is: THERE IS A DIFFERENCE! As the reasonable people here have said SOME (but certainly not all) humcancelling pickups come close. Some are QUITE different!

As usual, note that "different" means different, NOT "better" or "worse".

And it depends on how your hum cancelling pickups are made:

A quick review: Usual "soapbar" types have two single coil pickups side by side. Work great except that pickup senses the strings at two places at once so you get a somewhat denser sound with less pristine clarity. It's simple geometry and it CANNOT be made to sound like a single coil.

Another type is the Side by side pickup like a P-bass. Does a P-bass pickup sound like a jazz pickup? NO they don't. Why? well in this case you sense the strings at only one place but you have two pickups with smaller coils sensing only two strings at a time. Even if you put them in series to add up the inductance it's still not quite the same as a single coil. And in a P-bass the pickups on one set of strings is slightly offset from the pickup on the other two strings. A single coil picks up the same harmonics in every string.

Which leads to the totally side by side jazz pickup. (like Nordy) Better and closer to single coils (closest in my opinion) but still not exactly right because in this case of pure geometry. The reason P-bass pickups are offset is because you need the ROOM to wind the wire you need on each coil. Side by side humcancellers suffer from that lack of needed winding space. You aren't going to find many "overwound" side by sides!

And finally there is "stacked coil" "noiseless" pickup Well that IS a single coil pickup with a dummy coil added to cancel hum. Well, since they actually ARE single coil pickups they should sound just like one, right? Wrong. The problem is the dummy coil has lots of inductance even without the magnets and cores and therefore very much changes the sound of the pickup. My experience with these (my MIM Fender V has them) is they do NOT sound close to single coils at all.

So far as I know the ONLY single coils that sound like single coils without hum are those systems with a phantom coil that is ELECTRONICALLY mixed in the signal so it cancels hum but does not get into the signal path. But this is an active system and not common.

Bottom line: Hum cancelling pickups do NOT sound like single coil pickups, but some aren't too bad. You just have to give them a listen and use your subjective judgement as to what is decent sounding in YOUR taste.

[Kwesi]

You do realize you're talking to a guy that makes pickups, right ? Not saying that his opinion is law but I feel like he knows a lil sumthin about pickups .