Humcancelling vs. single coil

[madbassplaya]

So, I've confirmed that I'm a J bass guy.

My main squeeze is a G&L JB and it's awesome. Love the sound of that bass. It's got true single coils in it. I just bought a Fernandes J and some Dimarzio Ultra Jazz pickups to go into it. But i've been reading that humcancelling pickups can change/alter the tone of a J bass.

I would like to know your experiences with each.

[narud]

the ultrajazzes will be much wider in response. the midrange grind wont be there and the highs are more extended and glassy. overall im not a big fan of the humcancelling j's out there right now.

others will say they sound nearly identical to singles, but youll find out soon enough if you dig em'

[gforce9]

+1 to what Narud said. I will say Technology has come a long way. While hum-canceling (either stacked or side-by-side) won't sound exactly like a single coil cousin (for that matter, what two single coil variants sound alike?), many sound very good and are a good flavor of jazz tone. Dimarzio, Bartolini, Nordstrand, Delano, Fralin, SGD,.......all are very quality pups that have a great character. I have Nordstrand NJ4SE's in my Modulus Vintage Jazz, and while they have more in the low end and a tad bit less in the 800-4k range, they are most certainly jazz pups and sound very good. Any pickup will be different from whatever you take out; you need to find what you like, select a pickup that fits the bill, and enjoy playing.............

[madbassplaya]

this is what i was worried about. at first i thought a J pickup was a J pickup, but the reason i love a jazz is the sound it gives. i dont want to alter that in any way, so i'll be sticking with a single coil.

[acebase62]

Some here have said that the Dimarzio Area J pickups can sound pretty close to vintage single coils.

I haven't tried them yet, but might in the future...

[Nedmundo]

As I think you know, I have a new G&L JB, which is phenomenal. I also have a 2003 Am. Series Fender Jazz with noiseless Fralins (Split-Jazz), and a 2008 Am. Standard Jazz V with noiseless Nordstrands (NJ5FS), so I'll chime in. I love the tone of pure single coils, and will probably keep them in my JB. But good noiseless pickups can get pretty close, so if the hum is driving you crazy, they're worth a try.

The Fralins, in particular, sound close to good single coils, and I've been very happy with them. They lack some of the high end "air" and "sparkle," but if you normally turn the treble down a bit, they're functionally about the same IMO. Someone on TB mentioned a 1khz spike in the Fralins that makes them a little more harsh than vintage singles. I do notice my G&L vintage alnicos sound a little smoother, and perhaps that's why. This could vary with strings though, so YMMV, etc.

The Nordstrands provide a slightly more modern tone, but really growl when played aggressively, and sound great in a band mix.

I've also read good things about the DiMarzio Area J, and might try some in the JB eventually, but I'm finding I like having two great four string J-basses, one with pure singles and one noiseless. I've also considered some overwound Fralin singles, which would fatten up the low mids a little, and thus perhaps sound beefier with both pickups on full for hum canceling. But for now, I'm digging the JB as is.

[FunkMetalBass]

Nordstrand NJ4SE/SV's sound very close to their single-coil counterparts. I thoroughly enjoy mine.

The UltraJazz pickups are a terrible representation of split J's, IMO, as they are horrifically mid-scooped.

[SGD Lutherie]

By the way guys, the reason hum canceling Jazz pickups don't sound exactly like single coil Jazz pickups actually has very little to do with the hum canceling part.

The issue involves that you have to change the size and shape of the coils as well as how you wind them. Hum canceling pickups always involve two coils. The two coils sense the strings in phase, but sense magnetic field noise (hum) out of phase, so it cancels itself out.

Inline hum canceling pickups; like the DiMarzios and Nordstrands, are in reality two single coil pickups next to each other. So is a P bass. Since none of the strings are being sensed by both coils, they are single coils.

On something like a Music Man humbucker, each string is being sensed by both coils. What this does is reinforce the out-of-phase frequencies, which are the lows and mids, and it cancels out some of the in-phase frequencies, which are the highs. This is because those harmonics are so close together on the string that they "fall between" the two coils. If you move the coils farther away from each other you get that scooping of the mids like on a Jazz bass.

So then why don't a lot of hum canceling Jazz pickups sound exactly like a single coil (and we don't have to say "pure" or "true" single coil, because a single coil is a single coil).

The reason is that to fit the hum canceling pickup into the Jazz cover we need to make two smaller coils instead of one big coil. This changes the inductance of the pickup. Also sometimes more wire of a thinner gauge is wound on the pickup, such as with the DiMarzio Model J, to compensate for the two smaller coils. That also changes the tone. The Model J also has ceramic magnets and steel poles. But then it wasn't supposed to sound exactly like a real Jazz pickup. It was supposed to sound bigger, like they did with the Model P.

You can get close however, and the best sounding examples are lower output than some others.

Now when I did my Jazzbucker I wasn't trying to sound like a single coil at all. Just trying to come up with a good tone. There isn't just one tone from a Jazz bass. But I ended up with something that works well and gets all the standard tones people want.

So as long as you don't have to sound exactly like a particular Jazz bass tone (since there are so many), then humcanceling pickups can sound great.

[4Mal]

Originally Posted by madbassplaya

this is what i was worried about. at first i thought a J pickup was a J pickup, but the reason i love a jazz is the sound it gives. i dont want to alter that in any way, so i'll be sticking with a single coil.

Closest I've found yet is the side by side from Pete Biltoft at Vintage Vibe. Very much a J, has the single coil edge - yet silent.

When compared with his stock, JBX-4, it is slightly lower output with a slight bit more in the low mids. ... J leaning towards P but only a very little.

It's a great pickup. The prototype set sit's in my 75 RI to stay ... a couple of other local players have bought the same set after hearing mine ...

[Valerus]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

By the way guys, the reason hum canceling Jazz pickups don't sound exactly like single coil Jazz pickups actually has very little to do with the hum canceling part.

The issue involves that you have to change the size and shape of the coils as well as how you wind them. Hum canceling pickups always involve two coils. The two coils sense the strings in phase, but sense magnetic field noise (hum) out of phase, so it cancels itself out.

Inline hum canceling pickups; like the DiMarzios and Nordstrands, are in reality two single coil pickups next to each other. So is a P bass. Since none of the strings are being sensed by both coils, they are single coils.

On something like a Music Man humbucker, each string is being sensed by both coils. What this does is reinforce the out-of-phase frequencies, which are the lows and mids, and it cancels out some of the in-phase frequencies, which are the highs. This is because those harmonics are so close together on the string that they "fall between" the two coils. If you move the coils farther away from each other you get that scooping of the mids like on a Jazz bass.

So then why don't a lot of hum canceling Jazz pickups sound exactly like a single coil (and we don't have to say "pure" or "true" single coil, because a single coil is a single coil).

The reason is that to fit the hum canceling pickup into the Jazz cover we need to make two smaller coils instead of one big coil. This changes the inductance of the pickup. Also sometimes more wire of a thinner gauge is wound on the pickup, such as with the DiMarzio Model J, to compensate for the two smaller coils. That also changes the tone. The Model J also has ceramic magnets and steel poles. But then it wasn't supposed to sound exactly like a real Jazz pickup. It was supposed to sound bigger, like they did with the Model P.

You can get close however, and the best sounding examples are lower output than some others.

Now when I did my Jazzbucker I wasn't trying to sound like a single coil at all. Just trying to come up with a good tone. There isn't just one tone from a Jazz bass. But I ended up with something that works well and gets all the standard tones people want.

So as long as you don't have to sound exactly like a particular Jazz bass tone (since there are so many), then humcanceling pickups can sound great.

I seem to learn a LOT when I read your posts.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Valerus

I seem to learn a LOT when I read your posts.

Glad to hear it!

I read so much misinformation on the Internet everyday when it comes to this stuff, so I like to give people the facts. That makes it easier to decide on things like pickups.

I also think too many people are hung up on a Jazz bass has to sound like this, and a P bass sounds like this, etc. Make it sound like you! Back in the 70's when most people used only P basses, they got a whole range of tones. Everyone had their own sound, which is the way it should be. Don't copy someone else's tone, get your own! Just use them as inspiration.

My mom was a jazz singer back in the big band era. She used to say to me that someone should be able to tell who you are with just hearing a few notes. Otherwise you just sound like everyone else.

[andertone]

Great article

Of course there is alot of debate with Sadowsky (single coil (Duncans) vs "noise canceling" (Dimarzio) pickups that come on his basses. I bought the humcancelling Standard Jazz bass, and have been playing it for 15 years

Guess I'll have to keep it, never let me down in the tone department

[Valerus]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Glad to hear it!

I read so much misinformation on the Internet everyday when it comes to this stuff, so I like to give people the facts. That makes it easier to decide on things like pickups.

Yes sir. I was also digging through old Stellartone Tonestyler threads and you popped up a bit. I've been considering getting one of the rotary mods for my tone knob.

[MysticMichael]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

I also think too many people are hung up on a Jazz bass has to sound like this, and a P bass sounds like this, etc. Make it sound like you! Back in the 70's when most people used only P basses, they got a whole range of tones. Everyone had their own sound, which is the way it should be. Don't copy someone else's tone, get your own! Just use them as inspiration.

I couldn't agree more. It's funny how often "The Next Big Thing That Upended The Established Order" eventually becomes "The Standard From Which No Deviation Can Be Tolerated". It's kind of like a celebrity who became famous 50 years ago for doing something wildly innovative and trend-setting - and remains famous mostly...for being famous.

For me, there isn't anything that qualifies as the Holy Grail of pickup tone. Most any quality hum-canceling J-style pickup is close enough to single-coil for my purposes. The absence of hum makes them more than a worthwhile alternative...

[/soapbox]

MM

[madbassplaya]

i think i may go with a set of these:
http://www.seymourduncan.com/product...b3_quarterpou/

true single coils wound up to be a bit hotter. sounds good to me. any thoughts?

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

By the way guys, the reason hum canceling Jazz pickups don't sound exactly like single coil Jazz pickups actually has very little to do with the hum canceling part.

The issue involves that you have to change the size and shape of the coils as well as how you wind them. Hum canceling pickups always involve two coils. The two coils sense the strings in phase, but sense magnetic field noise (hum) out of phase, so it cancels itself out.

Inline hum canceling pickups; like the DiMarzios and Nordstrands, are in reality two single coil pickups next to each other. So is a P bass. Since none of the strings are being sensed by both coils, they are single coils.

On something like a Music Man humbucker, each string is being sensed by both coils. What this does is reinforce the out-of-phase frequencies, which are the lows and mids, and it cancels out some of the in-phase frequencies, which are the highs. This is because those harmonics are so close together on the string that they "fall between" the two coils. If you move the coils farther away from each other you get that scooping of the mids like on a Jazz bass.

So then why don't a lot of hum canceling Jazz pickups sound exactly like a single coil (and we don't have to say "pure" or "true" single coil, because a single coil is a single coil).

The reason is that to fit the hum canceling pickup into the Jazz cover we need to make two smaller coils instead of one big coil. This changes the inductance of the pickup. Also sometimes more wire of a thinner gauge is wound on the pickup, such as with the DiMarzio Model J, to compensate for the two smaller coils. That also changes the tone. The Model J also has ceramic magnets and steel poles. But then it wasn't supposed to sound exactly like a real Jazz pickup. It was supposed to sound bigger, like they did with the Model P.

You can get close however, and the best sounding examples are lower output than some others.

Now when I did my Jazzbucker I wasn't trying to sound like a single coil at all. Just trying to come up with a good tone. There isn't just one tone from a Jazz bass. But I ended up with something that works well and gets all the standard tones people want.

So as long as you don't have to sound exactly like a particular Jazz bass tone (since there are so many), then humcanceling pickups can sound great.

Excellent information! This should almost be a sticky!

And btw, I heard a clip of your neo jazzbuckers, and WOW they sure do sound good!!! REALLY good!!!

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Glad to hear it!

I read so much misinformation on the Internet everyday when it comes to this stuff, so I like to give people the facts. That makes it easier to decide on things like pickups.

I also think too many people are hung up on a Jazz bass has to sound like this, and a P bass sounds like this, etc. Make it sound like you! Back in the 70's when most people used only P basses, they got a whole range of tones. Everyone had their own sound, which is the way it should be. Don't copy someone else's tone, get your own! Just use them as inspiration.

My mom was a jazz singer back in the big band era. She used to say to me that someone should be able to tell who you are with just hearing a few notes. Otherwise you just sound like everyone else.

Just to offer a different perspective, there are some musicians who are in tribute bands or cover bands who may be interested in seeking the same tone as the artist they are covering.

For those musicians who are pursuing original material, finding your own sound is indeed the way to go.

Just sayin...

[SactoBass]

Originally Posted by madbassplaya

So, I've confirmed that I'm a J bass guy.

My main squeeze is a G&L JB and it's awesome. Love the sound of that bass. It's got true single coils in it. I just bought a Fernandes J and some Dimarzio Ultra Jazz pickups to go into it. But i've been reading that humcancelling pickups can change/alter the tone of a J bass.

I would like to know your experiences with each.

IME, I have never found any hum cancelling J pickups that provide as good a tone as true single coil J pickups.

It's kinda like having so many amp companies trying to provide that vintage Ampeg blueline SVT power tube saturated tone using all kinds of other methods, and many sound good, but none of them achieve the true tone (and feel) of the real thing. Since I can't lift an 80 pound behemoth SVT anymore, I have settled for an all tube pre into a solid state power amp. But there's nothin like the real thing!

Since the weight of pickups is not an issue, I always opt for the real thing.......true single coil J tone. The 60 hz hum is not an issue for me because I always run both J pickups equally, thereby cancelling the hum. It's all good!

IME, IMO, YMMV of course.

[bassbenj]

Originally Posted by SactoBass

IME, I have never found any hum cancelling J pickups that provide as good a tone as true single coil J pickups.

It's kinda like having so many amp companies trying to provide that vintage Ampeg blueline SVT power tube saturated tone using all kinds of other methods, and many sound good, but none of them achieve the true tone (and feel) of the real thing. Since I can't lift an 80 pound behemoth SVT anymore, I have settled for an all tube pre into a solid state power amp. But there's nothin like the real thing!

Since the weight of pickups is not an issue, I always opt for the real thing.......true single coil J tone. The 60 hz hum is not an issue for me because I always run both J pickups equally, thereby cancelling the hum. It's all good!

IME, IMO, YMMV of course.

Exactly. It's unfortunate that all life is full of compromises but the sad news is that it is! My MIM jazz has the "noiseless" pickups. Basically side by side buckers. I absolutely love the total lack of hum when singled. But the tone, while sort a semi-decent Jazz sound is just not there with single coils. On my single coil clones I tend to run both pickups to kill hum and the tone is superb. But singled is hum city. (to make matters worse my amp transformer seems to put out a huge hum field!)

And the Fender noiseless pups have spoiled me for more hummy mixtures.

I'd LOVE to hear of a humbucker J that has that single coil sound, but so far, I just haven't found it. I have tried the stacked coil Js too and they have a tone even worse than the side by sides.

So far just nothing like the real thing.

[markanini]