"J" pickups discussion and comparisons.

[SMASH]

Vitger - Fralins and Van Zandt ... pretty hard to come by and I've no experience with those. The Fender Custom Shop 60s I understand to sound very true but haven't tried them.

While that's an admittedly big gap in my sampling, I have a killer set of vintage pickups so I'm not that curious about the 60s, plus everyone seems to agree on their sound so I don't feel I'd be adding much to the lexicon with my two bits.


Kurosawa - Your days of trimming the high end on your amp/preamp are over. Let us know what you think of them? More opinions the better. By the way, I really liked that movie of yours in which the show tycoon's gardner's kid gets kidnapped.


OK ... I'm posting the Nordstrand reviews now ...

[SMASH]

Nordstrand NJ4

As a preamble to my Nordstrand reviews I want to give a big thanks to Carey Nordstrand for not only being an active participant at Talkbass, by which we all benefit, but primarily for having the balls to send me two samples of his work for review with no stipulation other than I speak my mind.

I consider this a great honour both because it shows a faith in my efforts in this thread - it has garnered many positive reviews which I am very grateful for - and because it's a leap of faith on Carey's part for even sending me these. Would *you* send me $400 worth of gear for almost no reason at all? If so, PM me for my address.

Right then.


Carey's documentation states :

1. The NJ4. This is a vintage style single coil pickup made with era correct formvar wire and Alnico 5 magnets. These pickups have a very even and full sound with that snap and grind associated with the great basses of that time.


Smash states :

Fair enough, except I found the sound not to be quite so even in that there was a pronounced bottom almost Antiquity II-like. A nice surprise which I like. If you tweak that down a bit though the spectrum shows a very balanced output.

The tone is very vintage - spot on except it doesn't sound rotted, by which I mean it doesn't have the very slight distorting that seems to be a hallmark of "vintage" p'ups which I'm attributing to the magnets aging. So, while vintage in tone, they sound fresh.

Up to you which is "better", I'm just glad there are clear differences as I'm having the good fotune to try out all these very well-made pickups and the differences at times are so minute if I didn't have the help of learned friends and A/B recordings I wouldn't be able to reliably tell the difference at times between the new vintage "style" pickups and the true oldies.

On that note, I will say again that anyone playing on stock new MIA p'ups when there are pickups like these available for very cheap compared to the tonal goodness they'll bring you ... well you'd be having much more sonic fun with these.


In subsequent correspondence Carey noted the pickups will come with covers. That's a good thing, since trying to fit these (or any) p'ups into older covers which can shrink over time won't always work.

A great design idea Nordstrand has implemented is found in the magnet height sitting flush with the cover tops and the beveled pole edges. Carey wrote, "Both of these features are meant to solve one of my pet peeve's with Jazz pups, that being I hate it when my fingertips get ground to hamburger when I play over the pickups and hit the sharp edges on the magnets." Smart.



Nordstrand NJ4

Warmth: 4
Clarity: 5
Output: 4
Punch : 4.5
Amplified Sound: 5
Recorded Sound: 4
Value: 5

Warmth: 4 - A prounounced bottom without being pillowy or distorted. That's the big surprise in what is a faithful version of a vintage J tone. The highs are distinct and not at all weak. There is a great width of articulation from these pickups. What I mean by this is that the highs are glassy (almost modern but still with an underlying fundamental) while the lows are a bit more meaty (a rolled-off top perhaps). Cool sound, like serperate EQs being applied to the highs and lows. In comparison with truly old-sounding "vintage" pickups the Nordstrands lack the rotting/fuzzy quality but instead have a clearer/new sound that is a bonus in a mix if (like me) you're the kind of person that ends up EQing things in way that sounds great until you realize not much of what you play on the D and G strings cuts through so well in a live mix.

Clarity: 5 - I suppose I've basically addressed the "Clarity" above in the "Warmth" section so I'll just add that while these are very articulate they aren't whimpy or clean for the sake of cutting through (which would be a bad thing in my book), they're just not ragged. A fine trade-off. Punch and grind these have, as advertised.

Output: 4 - More than enough to drive effects, pre-amp, what-have-you. These seem fairly sensitive to setting them at the right height. This score could be a '5' except there are those p'ups with massive output levels and I'll save the '5' score for those.

Punch : 4.5 - With the clear but stong tone and the good output we get some fine punch, especially in the lows.

Amplified Sound: 5 - In this category a "5" isn't so much meaning "ideal" or "the best" as it means you're getting an excellent tone and if you sound lame or weak with these pickups ... well it isn't the pickups that are the problem.

Recorded Sound: 4 - This could also be a '5' but could not be a '3' or less in anyone's book. I just prefer a bit more raggedness, but I was rockin' and if you're jazzin' then here is yet another path to superior sound. Even with that said, I'm liking these more each day.

Value: 5 - $150 for the pair is a killer deal.

The Bassline - If you don't need or want a truly rotting "vintage" magnet sound (and it's impossible to tell the difference in an actual mix), then here you go. http://www.nordstrandguitars.com

Carey, what were you using in your basses before you made these ?


BP didn't review these.

[JPJ]

SMASH,
Great review of a great set of pickups. To supplement, I just received some feedbadk from a guy who purchased a set of NJ4SEs last week (a similar vintage-voiced pickup but a bit more aggressive, with a slightly more mids and more "growl"). The SEs are the split-coil hum-canceling model, and here are a cople of comments from his reply to me:

"They sound very similar to Fralins but are just a little growlier and punchier with no noise!!!
I`ve tried several different hum canceling, but I`ve never been happy, untill now!"

Keep up the good work and keep the reviews coming...there are a lot of TBers who will find this to be extremely helpful.

[kurosawa]

Smash, I've been playing a '62 RI P pickup but I read what you said about your old pickups so when the opportunity arose I nailed a '73 P pickup for $30. Got rid of some kind of annoying little peak in the upper mids (or is it lower treble). Smoother and more P-grunt.

Yeah I asked and Grandpa told me we were distantly related to AK. Kurosawa is a place name (black marsh) and my dad owned it but signed it over to the folks who were living in the country house there since our branch of the family was firmly transplanted here.

Am wondering what wood I ought to get for the Model Js. Leaning toward hard ash right now.

[Carey]

Thanks for the review SMASH. I guess I came out alright.

The funny thing about making pickups is that there are so many variables its hard to settle on a design that you think will sell the best. Tone is so subjective that I might make and try a set and think they sound like junk and never offer them as a result when somebody might be looking for that exact tone.
I'm curious as to what "rotting" means as far as tone goes? I think I know what you mean, but can you clarify that a little more? Because this ties in to my statement about the subjectivity of tone. If I truly understand what "rotting" means I could probably make a set of pickups that pulls it off.

As far as what I used in my basses til now I had only built a few instruments that used J pickups. I put very early Aero's (not sure what model) in an ash and wenge bass and it totally lacked life. The bass sounded very thin. I then tried some UltraJazzes and the bass was a completely different animal. Much better.
I used Suhr J style pickups after that because that was where I was and they were available. Of course, that's where I learned how to make pickups as well. I'm doing things a little bit differently than John now though, because I'm finding my taste to be different. That's a great thing about making pickups, you can tailor the sound to eventually nail exactly what you have in your head. It offers a lot of flexibility when I build custom basses too.

I could go on and on about pickups, but I'll stop now. I'm curious to hear what you think about the Split version.

[maurilio]

Hey there,
I`m the guy who JPJ is talkin` about (I got the NJ4SE last week)
After some days of playing in different occasions with these pups, I still have them on my bass!!! Usually I used to keep the "new entry" one or two days and than back to Fralin!!! (I love them, but still the noise)
Anyway, it`s suppose to get together Carey and me, this Saturday. We gonna try a small variation. But I would be more informative next week after the meeting! Sorry
....
You know what? this is what is called " CUSTOM SERVICE"!
and these pups rules!

See ya next week!

Mo`

[SMASH]

Hi Carey,

I'll make my review a bit more clear tonight when I have a chance to edit it in terms of jargon like "rotting". I maent for it to erad as a glowing review, but I could make it less ambiguous as well as add a few more points.

For now, what I meant by that is that while the tones were very similar - we can even say identical save for a little bit brighter top on the Nordstrand - between a vintage p'up and yours, if you listen carefully to a given note or view it's wave on an editor, the "vintage" p'up has a bit of a haze/distortion to it compared to your more clean signal.

I've arbitrarily attributed that to aging as in my experience the p'ups that do this are either made to exhibit "vintage" properties or are in fact literally corroding/"rotting" 30 year old pickups.

In re: the split coils, for now I'll just say that *for me* I prefer the ol' fashioned regular p'ups, but the splits are also excellent.

[SMASH]

I've edited my Nordstrand review to remove some ambiguous terms/phrases, and also added some points Carey later made to me in re: the pickup magnets height and construction.

[rabid_granny]

Good work, Smash. Too bad you can't post sound samples...I'd be cool to be able to compare and contrast like those guys did with at basstasters.com.

[vanselus]

Yeah Smash, come on over to my house and we'll record basstasters pickup clips all day long! Unless of course Carey wants to send me a bass with his p/u's for "Tasting"... Hey, a guy can dream, can't he!

I actually have Aero singles in my Elrick and DAMN it sounds exactly like it does unplugged. That's the problem. EXACTLY. Clarity is one thing, but to have it sound all trebly and bright like one big string is another.

What i'm wondering is if it's the onboard Demeter preamp. Anyone have experience with those? I remember the Demeter 201 preamp has a overly bright (Wilson back me up) tendency too...

ack, what to do, what to do.

[David Wilson]

Originally posted by vanselus
What i'm wondering is if it's the Demeter preamp. Anyone have experience with those? I remember the Demeter 201 preamp has a overly bright (Wilson back me up) tendency too...

Yup, that's been my experience with the Dem pre's. Glassy highs.

[HotRoded]

Smash, thanks for your reviews, and for sharing!

I now have a 'real' bass, which hasn't been the case before, and I am beginning to learn about tone: I don't like what I have, so I am trying to sell my (almost new) amp, and then will very probably upgrade my J-bass. So your reviews really help.

Sorry that I got carried away, but I have a question. My bass is a MIA standard J-bass V, and I was wondering if all / most pick-ups were available for 5 strings. I'm more interested in vintage / big tone.

Thanks again!

[SMASH]

Hi HotRodded. Welcome to Talkbass !

Most, if not all, of the pickups reviewed here are available for 5-strings. The stock newer Fender 5-string p'ups are even worse than the 4-stringers IMO. If you go to http://www.roscoebeck.com and read about the pickups in his signature bass, there're some interesting ideas about making a p'up for 5 vs. 4 string.

For vintage and big, the Antiquity II fit the bill but could also be called brutish by some and I wouldn't argue ... Antiquity I are likely more "true". The Nordstrand NJ4 I reviewed most recently is killer - vintage tone and bigger bottom, though without the slight breakup. Aeros are dead-on vintage and more balanced across the spectrum (less bottom emphasis, which might be preferable if you're on a rosewood board with flats for example). DiMarzio Ultra Jazz would probably fit the bill too. I'll review those in coming weeks.

[Marty Forrer]

I've just taken the Ultrajazz pups out of my Jazz w/ J-retro, and put the Antiquity I's back in.
The Ultrajazz had a modernish punchy sound, a little bit compressed sounding. The Antiquity I's are definitely more vintage, more Jazz bass sounding, with a bit more bottom and a more sparkling top. Also, despite the BassPlayer ranking of them in the pup shootout, I would say the Antiquity I has a clarity of 4, the UltraJazz a clarity of 3. This is the reversal of the BP rating. Maybe it's just that the Antiquity I may sit better with the J-retro, who knows? Also, my bass has a heavy ash body, so that may have a bearing on it. Bottom line: in this particular bass, the Antiquity I smokes the Ultrajazz.

[SMASH]

Nordstrand NJ4SE

In case it isn't obvious via the following review, I mean to express that these should be very much to the liking of the active/modern sound crowd, but as a result not so much to me personally.


Carey's documentation states (I'm paraphrasing until tomorrow when I can copy directly from his papers and I'll edit accordingly) :

The NJ4SE is geared more for the modern player, with the tone being a bit more aggressive and slap friendly. The NJ4SEs are similar to the NJ4s, but are hum-canceling split coils (like a P pickup), so you don't have to deal with the noise and 60 cycle hum associated with a true single coil. While this set delivers a classic jazz single coil tone with zero noice, these pickups have a bit more growl and punch than their vintage-spec brothers


Smash states :

Aggressive yes perhaps, but more so up-the-middle sonically and I prefer aggressiveness to be in the lows. So to me these have a more polite tone than the NJ4, comparatively thin in range when passive though the NJ4SE expand nicely when pumped by a preamp (active). Quite sweet, where the NJ4 has more of a grunt .. how to describe that? Basically the NJ4 had more to it sonically especially in the lows when passive.

As I tried to say at the top though, I expect the boutique/modern/slap/articulate/active crowd would prefer these NJ4SE. Those just happen to often be dirty words to me and so these just happen to be not my "thing", or in line with the vibe of most of the other pickups reviewed here. By this point in the thread, my tonal bias should be very apparent.

If this were a concert review, the editor would not have sent me along and it would do Carey - and the readers of this thread - a much greater service if someone more knowledgeable of, and fit to judge, a modern sound would review these. I didn't even have anything similar to compare them to.

They look really cool - spilt coils, an extra metal plate on the bottom (they're kinda deep like the Model J), and some big screws holding it together. The poles on these are also beveled and flush with the covers to save your fingertips the grief. Definitely well-made, though as an aside here I'll make one recommendation to Carey. I've seen another maker put the wire-to-bobbin contacts on the inside (winding side) of the bottom bobbin, with the hot/ground wires threaded through a hole in the bottom bobbin to kind-of anchor it. Works great, as after enough ins & outs the wires can come unsoldered from the bobbin otherwise.

Essentially these have much the same tone as the NJ4 with a sweeter vibe - a bit better balanced in the lows though I prefer the heft of the NJ4's lows - and so you're left with a choice of two great different sets depending ***IMO*** whether you favour a more refined sound or more of a classic "ooomph".


Nordstrand NJ4SE

Warmth: 3
Clarity: 5
Output: 3.5
Punch : 3.5
Amplified Sound: 4
Recorded Sound: 4
Value: 4

Warmth: 3 - I'm rating these in passive mode in which the NJ4 are beefier, exhibit a greater breadth of range, but also more coloured which for some would be a negative so it comes down to personal preference. These don't lack warmth per se, I just think they'd benefit from a preamp to bring it out. By comparison with the NJ4 you might be cutting the lows a bit, so it comes down to *my* score being based on *my* personal preference.

Let me say this here too. I've come to notice that some pickups may sound much more like another pair of pickups with one set of strings with differences becoming more pronounced between the two sets on other sets of strings. True of the Nordstrands and maybe Carey can address why this would be. I can guess it's got something to do with the windings and magnets.

In case it hasn't sunk in though - you might dig a pickup with one type of strings and not another. Yikes !!! They've gotta have complimentary tones. Another variable. What this means for Bass Player is that they can't meaningfully review pickups without using different fretboards and strings, IMO. Hell, they didn't even rate their control group pickups which is what sent me bungling down this review path in the first place.

For my purposes it doesn't matter since I'm going to evaluate them on the bass I plan to use 'em on, and at least compare them to pickups dropped into the exact same bass. I ended-up with a mutt set of strings on a bass though and then I realized that the NJ4 set had much more personality/depth with what are normally too dark strings (LaBella Deep Talkin' rounds) than brighter strings such as a thin gauge set of D'Addario stainless.

Why mention this within the "Warmth" score of the NJ4SE? Well, I do enjoy my tangents but it is also relevant. With bright strings I found the stock set of '74 sounded better/warmer than the NJ4. Not so with darker strings - the 74s didn't bring it out while the NJ4 really came to life in the lows. I tried my beloved Antiguity II set on brighter strings and thought "eh, maybe they're not the be all end all" whereas with flats and such they're crushing. So maybe on some other set of strings the NJ4SE would really stand out more than they did (or didn't) to me in my tests.

Clarity: 5 - These too are very clear, and a bit better balanced with a very sweet tone. So, it isn't "Clarity" in a weak way.

Output: 3.5 - Again I say that I prefer these with a preamp, after which time they obviously have more output but I'm rating 'em passive here.

Punch : 3.5 - as per Output, just not quite as much heft as the NJ4 especially in the lows.

Amplified Sound: 4 - A bit sweet for my tooth. I like the less refined NJ4, noise and all (though with proper shielding and grounding you shouldn't have any noticeable noise, when you're playing it especially in a mix, even with stingle coils).

Recorded Sound: 4 - No doubt this and the "Amplified" score would be a '5' in the ears of the modern sound crowd.

Value: 4 - I prefer the NJ4s and since they're cheaper I can't rate the NJ4SE as high a value. If these are the tonal characteristics you want though, I think you'd get full value for your purposes.


The Bassline - I feel I'm just not the guy to do these justice. I can say that by looking at them (after seeing as many pickups as I have lately) it's obvious you're getting pickups that are well-made and with some creative engineering going into them, and that doesn't come cheap. These are certainly more than "just" a superior J pickup, but for me an excellent *single coil* classic-sounding J pickup is where it's at (in fact I installed the NJ4 set).

That said though, if I had one of those fancy Nordstrands with a preamp in it I'd likely opt for something more refined like these NJ4SE. In my ancient passive J though, the NJ4 sounded "right" instead.

NJ4SE sets are $240 from
http://www.nordstrandguitars.com


BP didn't review these either.

[Carey]

Thanks again for reviewing my pickups SMASH.
I appreciate any input I can get and this is very informative. Now that I know your tonal preference, I could probably wind a set of split J's that you would like. But that was not my goal with these reviews. I wanted your unbiased opinion and I got it. Thanks.

A few comments:

I personally prefer the SE's, but then I like a very bridge pickup heavy Jaco type tone, and I think these accomplish that. The NJ4's are just a more even sounding pickup accross the spectrum.

Strings will have a major impact on how these pickups sound. Well, on how any pickup will sound. As a matter of fact I think that the NJ4's with nickel strings will sound relatively close to the SE's with steel strings. Again though I prefer the SE's with nickel strings. Go figure. I guess my tastes are almost polar opposite of SMASH's.

But that's what makes this world so much fun. Variety.

Another note, after a little more R&D time I will be able to offer modified versions of either pickup. Overwound, underwound, different wire, etc. Hopefully, with good communication, I will be able to give any player exactly what they want tonally.

Thanks again SMASH!

[SMASH]

Originally posted by Carey
I personally prefer the SE's, but then I like a very bridge pickup heavy Jaco type tone, and I think these accomplish that. The NJ4's are just a more even sounding pickup accross the spectrum.

Good. Very well put. I agree completely, and I do go more for a J with P-like punch/lows type of sound.


Another note, after a little more R&D time I will be able to offer modified versions of either pickup. Overwound, underwound, different wire, etc. Hopefully, with good communication, I will be able to give any player exactly what they want tonally.

That's *fantastic*. A big can of worms (or Pandora's Pickup Box?) you're opening here, especially with the goodwill you've garnered on this site.

At this point I'll make one last comment. You already told me in PM that the papers you'll send out will be different, so of those I can only say that the text is perhaps a bit bland or understated. Outright hype isn't the way to go, I concede, but reading the paper didn't excite me about the pickups like it probably should.

You're onto something here, and some higher language could reflect that. So too I'd suggest emphasize the custom winding options.[/b]


Thanks again SMASH!

A great deal of thanks to you. I didn't expect to be surprised, much less so pleasantly to the point of keeping a set (not for free and I decided awhile after posting my review, in case anyone is wondering).


With my strings comments what I meant to convey is that if there are two sets of p'ups that sound identical on one set of strings, the pickups may no longer sound identical on a different set of strings. The different strings might bring out different characteristics in the pickups that weren't evident via the first set of strings.

The slight breakup in the sound of actual 30-year-old pickups was more evident in the highs, ergo on brighter strings. And the differences between the old pickups and the NJ4 were more pronounced when using strings that had a rich fundamental.

So, one might actually prefer a different set of pickups depending on which strings one is using. It seems obvious in hindsight, but I highly doubt this is something more people ever consider.

[maurilio]

Hey there,
saturday I met Carey. I saw the "atelier" and I could try both NJ4 and SE. I really liked the NJ4, if I would like a vintage sound I`ll go for it! Really nice pups, maybe I like them better than the Fralins...
But in my dark sounding Warmoth alder/rosewood/aguilar/brass bridge (schaller) I love the SE! They have something in the low end that make the bass sound very warm but defined... more punchy
In the high end is not very bright, but most of the time I play fingerstyle, so is not a big problem. When I want a more bright, slap sound I turn up the treble on the onboard preamp (I mentioned the brass bridge, because with the previous zinc BadAss it sounded brighter)
I didn`t try them with other type of strings, but Smash brought a good point about that!
Carey did a small modification on the pole pieces, because on my bass the E and G sounded a little bit louder than the other A and D strings. It`s fixed
At the moment I`m building another Warmoth bass with alder/flame maple, a brazilian fingerboard and aguilar pre. This woods, probably, would add a little bit more highs... just few days and I`ll let you know.
Anyway, Carey`s doing a good job with this pups and with his "custom service" the price is justified

salud

Maurilio

[JPJ]

Maurilio,
Glad to hear that you're happy with your Nordstrand pickups!

[maurilio]

Hey JPJ,
yesssss I`m very happy with this pups, thanks for your advises and help
It`s always a metter of taste, maybe for some guys it`s better this "xyz" brand or that "yxw" one, but after a lot of pup`s checking, I`ve found the one that I like
My "new" bass is having some "adjustement" from the "doctor"... but it`s already playing and sounding great
As soon as I get a digital camera, I`ll post some pictures.

Maurilio