Jazz Bass pickups & electrics that sounds close to upright double bass?

[mappy]

Hi guys.

I have a fretless Jazz Bass with RotoSound nylon coated strings and a pair of Fender noiseless PU.

Can you recommend me some good pickups that gets my sound closer to a typical upright bass sound from old jazz recordings, without going to a complex piezo approach?


Specifically:
- I don't want too punchy or slappy sound but more wholesome, wooden texture.
- Noiseless type is preferred because nylon coated strings have more noise because your fingers can't earth them

I've been looking at Bartolini but I'm free to all suggestions, or I don't mind keeping my Fender Noiseless if that's the best choice.

Also, my bass has always had CTS 1Mega (1000k) pots, which seems unusual. Should I change them to 500k or 250k? What would be suitable for jazzy upright-ish sound?

I know many of you would say it's impossible to get the upright sound from a bass guitar, and I am fully aware of that.
I hope someone can suggest me with what I CAN try, rather than tell me what I CAN'T achieve.

Thanks in advance

[line6man]

1M is probably too bright.
Maybe 250Ks would be better if you don't want the high end.
You are going to get a drop in output too though.

Maybe add a P bass pickup or something? I don't know.

[jworrellbass]

You could try an inexpensive arch top type pup. Put it close to the neck and wire it to a jack. If you move it back and forward, you might find the sweet spot for your sound. If it works buy a good bass pup and wire it up with a 250k pot.

That's what I'd try.

[mappy]

Thanks for such a rapid reply!

Originally Posted by line6man

1M is probably too bright.
Maybe add a P bass pickup or something? I don't know.

Would you be able to tell me what kind of difference I can get with the P-bass PU over the Jazz bass?
Are there any specific third party P-bass PU that might be good for my application?

[mappy]

Originally Posted by jworrellbass

You could try an inexpensive arch top type pup. Put it close to the neck and wire it to a jack. If you move it back and forward, you might find the sweet spot for your sound. If it works buy a good bass pup and wire it up with a 250k pot.

That's what I'd try.

Hello. Thanks for the advice!
By "arch top PU" do you mean like the Benedetto floating ones? Would that work OK with a bass, or are there bass specific ones? (I've never seen one used for a bass).

By the way, your bass looks awesome!

[jworrellbass]

Yes, I mean the floating type. What I was saying is to use the floating pickup to locate a spot and see how it sounded (because it's thin enough to fit under your strings). If you like the sound buy a bass pup and install it at that spot, wire it to a 250k pot. The closer you are to the neck the deeper your bass will sound. Or if the floating pup sounds good just use it.

Thanks for the compliment.

[mappy]

Originally Posted by jworrellbass

What I was saying is to use the floating pickup to locate a spot and see how it sounded (because it's thin enough to fit under your strings). If you like the sound buy a bass pup and install it at that spot, wire it to a 250k pot.

Sorry I missed the point earlier. This is quite involving since I would have to route a new cavity in the body etc. I can attempt that if conventional PU replacement don't give me what I want.

I think I am still stuck at the stage where you said "..buy a good bass pup and...", because I would like some suggestions on what would be an appropriate Jazz Bass shape PU for me.

[Derek Kiernan]

I would look into either Villex or Bill Lawrence pickups, for their great sensitivity to technique and nuance while picking up a lot more fundamental than traditional jazz bass pickups. They also have a smoother, better balanced high end, and lack the nasal tone jazz bass pickups often have. Neither will make you sound like an upright, but they'll get you wayyy closer than traditional designs.

I use Bill Lawrence's J-45s with 250k volume/tone and a three way switch. Trying to blend with volume/volume in passive (non buffered) setups is a bit of an exercise in futility. I'd change your wiring before any swapping pickups, honestly, and see how far that gets you. 1meg pots won't get you treble extension, only sharper quality to the upper mid resonance, which is probably the first thing you're trying to escape.

[dmusic148]

Oh dear, here we go again.


Not do-able.

Really listen to some recordings featuring DB to understand. All of you.

[mappy]

Originally Posted by Derek Kiernan

I would look into either Villex or Bill Lawrence pickups, for their great sensitivity to technique and nuance while picking up a lot more fundamental than traditional jazz bass pickups. They also have a smoother, better balanced high end, and lack the nasal tone jazz bass pickups often have. Neither will make you sound like an upright, but they'll get you wayyy closer than traditional designs.

I use Bill Lawrence's J-45s with 250k volume/tone and a three way switch. Trying to blend with volume/volume in passive (non buffered) setups is a bit of an exercise in futility. I'd change your wiring before any swapping pickups, honestly, and see how far that gets you. 1meg pots won't get you treble extension, only sharper quality to the upper mid resonance, which is probably the first thing you're trying to escape.

Thanks for the fantastic info. I have never heard of the Villex or Bill Lawrence pickups (probably because I don't see them at the shops), so I wouldn't have even been aware of it unless you told me about it.

They look fairly pricey but it's a one-off expenditure so I guess a good $200 is better than a generic $90 PU.

Based on all the helpful info provided to me so far, I changed the pots to 250k and the sound is much more sturdy and firm, which is great. The problem I had with the 1000k pots were that the volume changes were too abrupt and unpredictable. I also changed the cap from 0.022 to 0.047 orange drop (just what I had spare), so maybe that contributed too.

I might try the 3-way switch method that you suggested, if I can find an elegant solution that looks good.

Thanks!

[line6man]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Oh dear, here we go again.


Not do-able.

Really listen to some recordings featuring DB to understand. All of you.

I think we all know that it isn't do able, but the OP is looking for the closest thing he can do with an electric.

[mappy]

Originally Posted by dmusic148

Oh dear, here we go again.
Not do-able.

Really listen to some recordings featuring DB to understand. All of you.

Hi. If you have ever recorded DB in a standard combo environment, you would know that the recorded sound isn't like what you hear on a live instrument. (particularly with a off-axis close mic, not those modern piezo way).

I agree with you that I don't really believe that I can recreate the real lush DB sound with a BG. For that, I'll just use my DB anyway. What I want to achieve is a setup that will work as a good rhythm section part for a jazz combo using a BG (for transportation convenience), without getting too much of those upfront punchy 80's slap-bass sounds.

If you know of any good PU that may be suitable for my needs, then I would like to hear your opinion. Otherwise, please read below:

Originally Posted by mappy

I know many of you would say it's impossible to get the upright sound from a bass guitar, and I am fully aware of that.
I hope someone can suggest me with what I CAN try, rather than tell me what I CAN'T achieve.

[mappy]

Originally Posted by line6man

I think we all know that it isn't do able, but the OP is looking for the closest thing he can do with an electric.

Thanks!

I think for example everyone knows that you can't get a real vibraphone sound out of a synthesizer.. But that doesn't mean that you are expected to carry a real vibraphone to every gig that you play!

I guess the bottom line is, I'm prepared to change to a new PU, but I am totally lost and open to suggestions, so I want to hear from people who enjoys the same style of music that I enjoy playing (traditional jazz combos).

I didn't want to make it simply a PU question thread, because maybe I am missing some other basic elements, like the pots for example, or the fact that it is a Jazz Bass and not some other BG.

I read a great, more open-ended thread about BG vs DB here:
Upright tone

[Derek Kiernan]

Originally Posted by mappy

Thanks for the fantastic info. I have never heard of the Villex or Bill Lawrence pickups (probably because I don't see them at the shops), so I wouldn't have even been aware of it unless you told me about it.

They look fairly pricey but it's a one-off expenditure so I guess a good $200 is better than a generic $90 PU.

Based on all the helpful info provided to me so far, I changed the pots to 250k and the sound is much more sturdy and firm, which is great. The problem I had with the 1000k pots were that the volume changes were too abrupt and unpredictable. I also changed the cap from 0.022 to 0.047 orange drop (just what I had spare), so maybe that contributed too.

I might try the 3-way switch method that you suggested, if I can find an elegant solution that looks good.

Thanks!

Bill's J-45s are $120 for the pair.

Glad the pots worked out for you! I'm always more than skeptical when 500k or 1000k pots are used "because they're humbuckers".

[depalm]

Originally Posted by mappy

Hi guys.

I have a fretless Jazz Bass with RotoSound nylon coated strings and a pair of Fender noiseless PU.

Can you recommend me some good pickups that gets my sound closer to a typical upright bass sound from old jazz recordings, without going to a complex piezo approach?


Specifically:
- I don't want too punchy or slappy sound but more wholesome, wooden texture.
- Noiseless type is preferred because nylon coated strings have more noise because your fingers can't earth them

I've been looking at Bartolini but I'm free to all suggestions, or I don't mind keeping my Fender Noiseless if that's the best choice.

Also, my bass has always had CTS 1Mega (1000k) pots, which seems unusual. Should I change them to 500k or 250k? What would be suitable for jazzy upright-ish sound?

I know many of you would say it's impossible to get the upright sound from a bass guitar, and I am fully aware of that.
I hope someone can suggest me with what I CAN try, rather than tell me what I CAN'T achieve.

Thanks in advance

In my opinion PUs don't play a major rule in this case. I think you better try with strings, (Flats, Nylon etc…) and technique (Palm muting etc…).

One thing that I like to do is place a piece of foam under the strings or dump them with foam inside the bridge cover.

Also I use to play with my thumb very close or above the neck to get a nice "double bass Fx".

The less sustain you get the better.

2 cents

[4Mal]

Sell the J, buy a piezo semi-hollow. A J will never be close enough to do more than laugh at ... wonderful basses J's... I have 4 in the stable. Also 2 piezo semi-hollows for when I want an EB emulating URB for an acoustic environment. ( I do some trad country and newgrass stuff that involves acoustic instruments and the piezo basses realy shine for that.)

Note I said emulating. Even the better of my 2 piezo basses isn't going to fool anyone. What they bring to the party is a more URB like attack and decay. That lends itself toward composing a line that might have been played on URB. Tonally the big fundamental of the piezo helps. The upper end zing doesn't - that has to be controlled through EQ. Like I said it's never going to fool anyone but it's way closer than anything else in the EB world IME.

[mappy]

Originally Posted by Derek Kiernan

Bill's J-45s are $120 for the pair.

Glad the pots worked out for you! I'm always more than skeptical when 500k or 1000k pots are used "because they're humbuckers".

Yea thanks.The pots are such a cheap thing to do that it was definitely worth changing (I don't know why it had 1000k.. it was an old style CTS, so maybe it came originally with it).
I actually didn't want to mess with the pots until I decide to upgrade the PU, but I'm glad that I did the pots first.

Originally Posted by depalm

In my opinion PUs don't play a major rule in this case. I think you better try with strings, (Flats, Nylon etc…) and technique (Palm muting etc…).

One thing that I like to do is place a piece of foam under the strings or dump them with foam inside the bridge cover.

Thanks. I'm currently using the Rotosound's black nylon coated strings. I believe they are roundwound inside (so it's very cheap compared to the flatwound+nylon coated La Bellas. They sound great but maybe I should switch to La Bella...

I tried using various foam in front of the bridge, but the problem I found was that the outer two strings were muted much more than the middle two, due to the fingerboard curvature. I wonder how I can get a better result.

Originally Posted by 4Mal

Sell the J, buy a piezo semi-hollow.

Like I said it's never going to fool anyone but it's way closer than anything else in the EB world IME.

I'm thinking about buying a piezo EB but I won't sell my Jazz Bass!
Do you think those piezo upgrade bridge for Jazz Bass (like the Fender Power Jazz or Graphtech ones) is no good compared to a dedicated semi-hollow? I never heard them before because there's none in music shops nearby.


Thanks for all

[greenboy]

The relevant points about emulation have all been mentioned including strings (you might check Carvin pricing on tapewounds though). But pickups do play a roll. Of all the pickups I've had the two that I could best fake something that functioned similarly in an ensemble using hand technique and vibe awareness, were the Bill Lawrence J-45, and the Q-Tuners, and a little part-time palm muting.

[4Mal]

Originally Posted by mappy

I'm thinking about buying a piezo EB but I won't sell my Jazz Bass!
Do you think those piezo upgrade bridge for Jazz Bass (like the Fender Power Jazz or Graphtech ones) is no good compared to a dedicated semi-hollow? I never heard them before because there's none in music shops nearby.


Thanks for all

I play J solid bodies for rock & funk & etc Godin A4's and Acoustibass for all the acoustic stuff. The semi hollow construction plays a large part in the overall attack. it is very, very dfferent from a solid body. I've played around with a solid MM bass that had piezo out and it wasn't real impressive. Oddly enough, I like he 'acoustic' pieezo out on a Godin XTSA guitar. Againg the attack is more like a flattop - tonally it's different...

For my uses, the acoustic guitar like bridge works better than individual brdge pieces. Not 100% sure why but it's a much woodier tone. The Baggs system in my Acoustibass does a fantastic job.

I'm all over a Rob Allen - about a day after I replace my ex-job or hit the lottery. As I don't actually play, it will take some time ...

[depalm]

Originally Posted by mappy

Thanks. I'm currently using the Rotosound's black nylon coated strings. I believe they are roundwound inside (so it's very cheap compared to the flatwound+nylon coated La Bellas. They sound great but maybe I should switch to La Bella...

I tried using various foam in front of the bridge, but the problem I found was that the outer two strings were muted much more than the middle two, due to the fingerboard curvature. I wonder how I can get a better result.

You can use a piece of foam for each string, like old Music Man bridges.
Cut four pieces with a scissor and adapt every piece to the string height.

I use the foam glued to the pickup cover with a tape. It's just a matter of trying / error. But when you find the right consistence on foam and all the strings resonate equally…heaven.