Just some questions on in-lines

[Johnius]

I've noticed that several bass/pickup manufacturers use in-line humcancellers, including Lakland, Sadowski, Warwick, Fender, Bartolini and EMG. Aside from a few differences like width of sensing area, winds and wire type, isn't an in-line just a P pickup?

My corvette has what appear to be two single coil pickups but it's really to in-lines. So while looking like version of the jazz bass, it's actually more of a double p. Agree or disagree?

Why is it popular to make humbuckers look like single coils? Is it a trick that manufacturers use on bassists to invoke the muscularity of the single coil while delivering a noiseless configuration?

Does anyone know who was the first to use the in-line and if there was an explanation for it?

[bassgod0dmw]

Originally Posted by Johnius

Why is it popular to make humbuckers look like single coils? Is it a trick that manufacturers use on bassists to invoke the muscularity of the single coil while delivering a noiseless configuration?

Drop in replacement pickups...

[Johnius]

Originally Posted by bassgod0dmw

Drop in replacement pickups...

I'm not complaining about, just curious.

[kb9wyz]

Originally Posted by Johnius

So while looking like version of the jazz bass, it's actually more of a double p. Agree or disagree?

I would tend to disagree. A lot of people (like me) prefer hum cancelling because hum sucks. But there is another difference that is worth mentioning: aperture.

The coils on a P are bigger around than on a J. I can't say by how much, but to my eye it looks about 30-50 wider for a P. Even at the same impedance and all that. this will make the sound different because more of the string is inducing the pup. So an in-line humbucking J will not sound like a P, even if they are in the same position.

Check out SGD Guitars. They make soapbars in both wide and narrow aperture because of this.

[line6man]

Originally Posted by Johnius

Why is it popular to make humbuckers look like single coils?

It's not about what it "looks like."
The idea is to try to capture a single coil tone, but with a pickup that can humcancel. Various manufacturers have achieved various levels of success in doing so. Split coils seem to be the most popular method, but other designs also exist, such as vertically stacked coils, narrow-aperture rail style coils that fit in a single coil casing, and sidewinder pickups.

A split coil J pickup is nothing like a P pickup. The aperture is narrower, the coil is taller, and they are usually wound differently.

[bassgod0dmw]

Originally Posted by Johnius

I'm not complaining about, just curious.

But that's what I'm saying. It's popular to make them in styles that drop right in to other basses.

If you had a J bass but wanted to add hum cancelling pickups, and you're only option was to route the bass to make room for a huge MM style humbucker, you'd probably think twice about doing it.

[Johnius]

Originally Posted by line6man

It's not about what it "looks like."
The idea is to try to capture a single coil tone, but with a pickup that can humcancel. Various manufacturers have achieved various levels of success in doing so. Split coils seem to be the most popular method, but other designs also exist, such as vertically stacked coils, narrow-aperture rail style coils that fit in a single coil casing, and sidewinder pickups.

A split coil J pickup is nothing like a P pickup. The aperture is narrower, the coil is taller, and they are usually wound differently.

IME, I'm not sure I've ever heard the single coil tone captured by a hum canceller. Cancelling the hum takes the edge off the tone.

[Johnius]

Originally Posted by bassgod0dmw

But that's what I'm saying. It's popular to make them in styles that drop right in to other basses.

If you had a J bass but wanted to add hum cancelling pickups, and you're only option was to route the bass to make room for a huge MM style humbucker, you'd probably think twice about doing it.

That makes sense. So they were possibly borne out of hum aggravation.

[mikezimmerman]

Originally Posted by Johnius

Aside from a few differences like width of sensing area, winds and wire type, isn't an in-line just a P pickup?...

Not to come off too flip about it, but things like "sensing area, winds and wire type" are pretty significant elements in making a particular pickup sound the way it does.

Mike

[walterw]

Originally Posted by Johnius

That makes sense. So they were possibly borne out of hum aggravation.

they were most likely entirely born out of "hum aggravation".

true single-coil tone with no noise is a "holy grail" of pickup engineering (for guitars, too).

side-by-side Js don't have the output loss of vertical stack designs, and there are some good ones that sound pretty darn close to the "real thing".

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by Johnius

isn't an in-line just a P pickup

Yes and no. It is because it's a split coil humbucker. It isn't because P bass pickups use wide squat coils with a lot of wire on them. This gives them a certain tone.

My corvette has what appear to be two single coil pickups but it's really to in-lines. So while looking like version of the jazz bass, it's actually more of a double p. Agree or disagree?

Disagree. P pickups sound different. A bass with double Ps wont sound like a Jazz bass.

Why is it popular to make humbuckers look like single coils? Is it a trick that manufacturers use on bassists to invoke the muscularity of the single coil while delivering a noiseless configuration?

Because people want a Jazz pickup that doesn't hum. Some are made to sound different, like the Model J. That came out all the way back in 1979. It was supposed to sound fatter. Some sound more like vintage pickups. Some are different altogether.

There is no correct tone from a pickup, not even a Jazz pickup. I don't know how a single coil has "muscularity". They are brighter than some humbuckers, and that's about it. Humbuckers are fatter and have stronger mids, and a slightly rolled off high end. This is because they sense a wider area of the strings, and the two coils have some phase cancelation and reinforcement of certain frequencies. Humbuckers have more muscle, as you can tell from hearing a Les Paul compared to a Strat. But the single coils are brighter and more open sounding.

Does anyone know who was the first to use the in-line and if there was an explanation for it?

It was patented by Seth Lover in 1959 as a type of humbucker. It was again patented by Leo fender in 1961 for the P bass, based on the idea of the offset coils expanding the tone.

Bartolini made split coil Jazz pickups back in the 70s, and the Model J came out in '79. The idea is for a pickup that fits a Jazz bass that doesn't hum and in the case of both of those, has a different tone. Some of the more recent pickups sound more like traditional single coils. Technically a split coil pickup is a single coil, since the strings are sensed only by one coil, unlike a regular humbucker where they are sensed by two. So it doesn't have the ow end bump and rolled off highs of a differential pair of coils like a regular humbucker.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by walterw

they were most likely entirely born out of "hum aggravation".

That would be hum elimination! Hum isn't musical, and we shouldn't need to hear it.

true single-coil tone with no noise is a "holy grail" of pickup engineering (for guitars, too).

Only if what you are trying to do is get the tone of a single coil. Also, there are many types of single coils. When people say single coil, they usually mean a Fender, but there are others and they sound very different.

Some hum canceling pickups DO sound like real single coils, but they might not sound like a Jazz bass pickup. And thats OK, because that's not the only tone in the world. I'm sick of the damn things myself!

side-by-side Js don't have the output loss of vertical stack designs, and there are some good ones that sound pretty darn close to the "real thing".

The things about stacks is they are very bright because of low end cancelation. So to make them louder and warmer they wind a lot more wire. To do this in the regular size of a Jazz pickup, you need to use very thin wire, like 44 gauge. That wire is going to make the pickup sound very different from one wound with 42 gauge. Also the more wire you wind, the lower the resonant peak gets, until it's in the midrange.

So it cam be done with stacks, but unless you amplify them like with the EMG J pickups, you get low output, or a darker tone.

Side-by-side coils work well, but once again you are changing the amount of wire on the pickup, and the size of the coils. So the inductance is a bit different.

Two other types of hum canceling Jazz pickups are the mini humbucking type, like the Joe Bardens and my own Neo Jazzbuckers, and "sidewinders" such as the Q-Tuners and my own Sidewinder Js. The dual rail pickups can sound very much like a Jazz pickup, but a little fatter, and the Sidewinders sound exactly like single coils, and are very bright, but have slightly lower output.

The "problem" with making humcanceling pickups to fit a Jazz bass, and that sound like single coils, is the size is very limiting. It can be done if you rout out for soapbars.

But the split coils work very well for 4 string basses.

[kb9wyz]

I would like to add to this whole thing one more thought (because the Master has spoken and that's all the room he left) a good preamp will dump the hum pretty nicely. I am running single-coil pups in my Jazz with an Audere pre. I get no hum at all. And I nearly always am only on one pup at a time.

[walterw]

how is a preamp going to remove pickup hum?

[walterw]

Originally Posted by walterw

true single-coil tone with no noise is a "holy grail" of pickup engineering (for guitars, too).

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Only if what you are trying to do is get the tone of a single coil.

right right, that's what i meant by "a holy grail", as opposed to "the holy grail";

plenty of good humbucker pickups sound like "themselves" by design, too.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by walterw

how is a preamp going to remove pickup hum?

I was wondering that myself.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by walterw

right right, that's what i meant by "a holy grail", as opposed to "the holy grail";

Well you are right though. Plenty of designs try to sound like regular single coils without hum.

For guitar the DiMarzio Virtual Vintage pickups are really good. I also heard a set of Fralin sidewinder P-90s that sounded like the real thing.

But I was just pointing out how people get hung up that two sets of Jazz pickups don't sound exactly alike.

[line6man]

Originally Posted by kb9wyz

I would like to add to this whole thing one more thought (because the Master has spoken and that's all the room he left) a good preamp will dump the hum pretty nicely.

Who told you that?

[kb9wyz]

Originally Posted by line6man

Who told you that?

Didn't expect to get heat for this.

My Jazz started off as a passive bass with single coils. I would get hum in the place I practiced all the time. Fairly annoying. After dropping in the Audere, I got no noticeable hum anymore. Maybe it was still there and I just needed to turn the volume a lot to hear it. But, nevertheless, the hum went away.

I don't know why and I don't know how, but it did. So if anyone has any idea other than something the preamp did, then I'd like to hear it, because if it wasn't the preamp, then I have no clue what happened.

[walterw]

hmm; maybe there was a bad ground or improper shielding going on, and that got corrected in the process of installing the preamp.

a preamp is gonna boost everything (including noise) when turned up; that's why they're usually paired with hum-cancelling pickups.