MIDI & Bass

[Andrew W.]

I tried reading threads already posted, but I was left more confused than I was before. What I want to do is use my bass as a MIDI controller for Reason on my computer. Can some one explain all the options I have, and their pros and cons?

[elros]

I use the Roland solution: GK pickup and GR-20 guitar-synth. This outputs MIDI but I mainly use the built-in sounds. Works well. Some latency on the lowest notes (begin to notice this below low A).

[Le Basseur]

Any "GK" type pickup (Roland,Yamaha,Axon) or some other bridge-mounted systems (Lightwave,etc) and use Roland V-Bass or,better,AXON synth (the best tracker out there,no latency whatsoever).
Trust me,especially with the AXON,you'll never look back.
....but your playing technique should be improved as these synths are very "picky" about that.

[Andrew W.]

I forgot to mention I have a wide-spaced 6 string (19 or 20mm, I can't recall). What GK pick-up should I use if I choose to use one? And can anyone tell me more how piezo pickups can be used for MIDI tracking?

[IanStephenson]

The GK bass pickups support 6 strings, and have adjustable spacing up to 19mm.

You'll not get good tracking on the low B, but the high C is pretty good. I've got mine on a 5 string tuned E-C.

Ian

[Le Basseur]

Originally Posted by IanStephenson

You'll not get good tracking on the low B, but the high C is pretty good.

Don't want to steal the thread but,in my humble oppinion and after testing the Roland's GK2B on three different basses w/more than a dozen of different string brands in all four standard tunings (E-G,B-G,E-C and B-C) on both Roland V-Bass and AXON 100 MKI units,all I can say is that the "trackability" of thick strings is highly dependable on three factors:
1.The GK PU's proper placement regarding to the strings AND bridge:self-explanatory,as you read the mounting instructions.
2.The "string sensibility" adjustment on each synth unit.
3.Most important,the quality of the strings' themselves.I found out that,all other being the same,the poor trackability on thicker strings appears when these are old and/or dirty,or if they're flabby (thinner gauges or lower tension).
Take your trusty tuning device or use a good software tuner (like AP Tuner) and play the suspect string empty,than the first open harmonic above the 12th fret,than the note on the first fret (as the first fret is the closest to the nut in relation with the hex PU/bridge)-these freqs shouldn't vary too much in the first second or two if played with a light-to-normal touch.
I got the best results using some stiff strings,such as Fodera Diamonds.No tracking issues whatsoever.
HTH!
Rergards,

PS
On older synth models like Elros' Roland GR-20 and such,the latency IS present due to a slower recognition,"not-so-advanced" chipset.I observed this issue on almost all pre-AXON/V-Bass/VG-88 synths.

[elros]

Originally Posted by Le Basseur

Any "GK" type pickup (Roland,Yamaha,Axon) or some other bridge-mounted systems (Lightwave,etc) and use Roland V-Bass or,better,AXON synth (the best tracker out there,no latency whatsoever).

Originally Posted by Le Basseur

... on both Roland V-Bass and AXON 100 MKI units,all I can say is that the "trackability" of thick strings is highly dependable on...

Please allow me to point out that the V-Bass and the V-Guitar systems ARE NOT MIDI SYNTHS. So do not compare the "tracking" of these to real MIDI units like the AXON and the GR-20.
For more details, read http://hallgeir.no/bass/electronics/intro/

Originally Posted by Le Basseur

On older synth models like Elros' Roland GR-20 and such,the latency IS present due to a slower recognition,"not-so-advanced" chipset.I observed this issue on almost all pre-AXON/V-Bass/VG-88 synths.

Note that the Roland GR-20 is the newest guitar-to-MIDI unit from Roland (except the VG-99). The old ones are the GR-33, GR-30 and GI-10.

[Le Basseur]

Originally Posted by elros

Please allow me to point out that the V-Bass and the V-Guitar systems ARE NOT MIDI SYNTHS. So do not compare the "tracking" of these to real MIDI units like the AXON and the GR-20.
For more details, read http://hallgeir.no/bass/electronics/intro/

Thanks for pointing it out.I'm perfectly aware about the differences,but I wanted to "simplify" the things a bit in terms of "trackability".Obviously,too much generalization leads to confusions and misconceptions.Sorry for the unintentional misleading.

Originally Posted by elros

Note that the Roland GR-20 is the newest guitar-to-MIDI unit from Roland (except the VG-99). The old ones are the GR-33, GR-30 and GI-10.

I meant the GR-33,not the newer GR-20 (early-morning typo and insuficcient coffee absorbed).My appologies.

[Andrew W.]

How are piezos used for MIDI tracking, how would they be installed, and how much would they run me (with tech labor)?

[WarriorJoe7]

Best midi option that I know of... unless Midi has come a long way in the last 3 years... Peavey Midibass or Peavey Cyberbass. I should record some clips for ya but I did one already in another thread. Just look for midibase and youll find it.

It makes the 4 string sound like an excellent 8 string and it has an AWESOME octave down sound. Those alone make it worth it but there is so much more.

I have an extra midibase I am selling as soon as I replace a switch in it.

The midi functionality is awesome, however the bass itself is very average and below Peavey's normal standard for a USA bass. It is comparable to the BXP line though and they are decent. I am tinkering with the idea of having a custom made neck done. I see how they did everything on this bass except the open strings. I am not sure how they did that yet. Their is not too much in the neck and the special frets are the only thing that I am not sure about whether I can get or implement (and maybe the nut too.)

Update: after a good setup the midibase plays just as well as a USA millennium. I guess that is what it needed. So it is a really good bass, as millenniums are held in high regard (not the BXP model the USA model.)

[elros]

Originally Posted by Andrew W.

How are piezos used for MIDI tracking, how would they be installed, and how much would they run me (with tech labor)?

Piezos are used the same way as the Roland GK pickups. The difference is that the GK pickup is a magnetic pickup, the piezo isn't. Piezo pickups should be able to deliver a more clean and ideal signal, but I haven't experienced much difference in tracking between my RMC equipped Conklin and the two GK equipped 6-strings.


Prices: RMC from a couple of years ago:

1 set ABM-700-11 Pow'r Bass ABM 4-string $430.MSRP $430.
1 HYBRID B Hybrid B mono onboard preamp $ 90.MSRP $ 90.

I don't know how much a tech would charge for the installation. If it were me (yes I'm a tech) I'd probably charge 3-500 USD. But I'm in Norway, labour is more expensive here.

[WarriorJoe7]

So I must mention that the midibase has a very small amount of delay... however the delay is the same for every note so it doesn't get worse or better depending on where you are playing. That means that once you adjust it will be consistent. If I remember correctly the delay is smaller than any gk type pickup.

[agfrag]

I'd like to jump into this thread. I have piezo's in my bridge, and the preamp I'm using is the EMG 4, which has four individual ouputs, as well as a summed output. The literature that came with it says that the individual outputs are for midi conversion, but what do I have to buy to do the conversion? I've searched and searched, and nuttin'!

[elros]

Originally Posted by agfrag

I'd like to jump into this thread. I have piezo's in my bridge, and the preamp I'm using is the EMG 4, which has four individual ouputs, as well as a summed output. The literature that came with it says that the individual outputs are for midi conversion, but what do I have to buy to do the conversion? I've searched and searched, and nuttin'!

For MIDI conversion use for example the Axon or the Roland GR-20.

These both use the GK 13-pin standard for interfacing with a hexaphonic pickup.
I don't know how the EMG preamp of yours work, but obviously you need to wire it up to the 13-pin input of the above mentioned guitar synth units. This might not be a trivial matter.

[agfrag]

Originally Posted by elros

might not be a trivial matter.

Yes, that the problem, I suspect it's not, and at this point, I really don't feel like digging into the MIDI hardware spec to learn how to design my own circuit

[elros]

If the literature that came with the pre-amp says that these outputs are designed for MIDI conversion type things, then I would assume that whoever wrote this literature ought to know something about what needs to be done to acheve your goals.

Or, to put it in more simple terms:
Ask EMG.

[agfrag]

Touche!

I shall!

[Basshole]

I'm not going to talk about the equipment of today as it applies to Bass-to-MIDI systems, simply because there really isn't much that CAN be done regarding the technology, as the limitations such systems will forever be in the PHYSICS.

It takes at least half a wave cycle to really properly measure pitch. At Low E that means you automatically have a built-in 1/82th of a second delay. Higher notes (frequencies) will always respond with proportionately less lag.

You can learn to anticipate these systems, and at least partially compensate, if you're good...but expressively, it's always going to be largely comparable to running in sand.

My $.02

[WarriorJoe7]

But what do you think abot the peavey system (once used by Wal until Peavey bought the rights.)

In that system when you fret a note the fret is connected to the electronics to complete a circuit. A resistor is placed between frets changing the voltage drop depending on which fret you are contacting with the string. The midi note is derived from the voltage drop (example. The drop is 6.4V so that means the 13th fret) and then that value is converted to a certain midi note.

I must admit there is a very slight delay but it is the same for each fret and each note. When I am doing octave up it sounds like an 8 string where the octave string is plucked after the fundamental string. When I use ocatve down it sound freaking awesome and is probably better than any other sub octave I have used, for the mere fact that the tracking is perfectly accurate.

So I would like to here what you guys think of this system.

[elros]

I haven't tried the Peavey / Wal MIDI bass system, but I imagine it'd work quite well for the most part. But how can it track chords? If you fret several strings, won't they short out the frets?

Anyway. Basshole is right, bass guitar isn't very well suited as a MIDI controller. If you really need MIDI sounds, you'd be way better off learning the keyboard.
It is, however, nice to be able to trigger MIDI sounds from my main instrument.

(One detail though, and I know I'm being picky here: higher frequencies won't respond with proportionally less lag, I think it'll be inversly proportional.)