Perfect acoustic tone, poor amplified tone. What to do?

bongomania · #1 05-19-2009, 12:57 PM

I have a Matt Pulcinella Level 5 fretless with TI flats, and it's one of those rare basses where you can pick it up and play it unplugged and just get blown away by the sweet tone, resonance, and sustain. Some people say that's how they pick a "good" Fender or other brand they're cherry-picking. But the weird thing is, all that sweet tone "disappears" when I play it plugged in. It actually sounds pretty weak and lame.

It's got Bart soapbars (which I usually like quite well, though I'm not sure of the internal configuration on these) and passive VTVT wiring. I've adjusted the pickup height a few times, and it seems to help for a bit, and then later nah, not so much, especially when I turn off the amp and hear what the bass "really" sounds like again.

Probably the cheapest/easiest option is to install a preamp, and indeed I bought a Bart pre that needs a little repair, just haven't gotten around to fixing/installing it yet. But before I go to that trouble, or spend money on another preamp, I thought I'd throw it out here.

What would you do in this situation? New pups? New pre? Both? Sell the bass? Fancy passive system like Villex or simple active system like a Redeemer?

anonymous02282011 · #2 05-19-2009, 01:04 PM

yea, a preamp would be my first pick. Next would be changing the pickups. I'm guessing a little EQ might do the trick.

What is it about the amplified sound that you find lacking?

excane · #3 05-19-2009, 01:06 PM

+1 on the preamp if it already has the Bart's in it.

I've had the same experience with several of my basses and swapping out the preamp (or adding one if it didn't have) solved the issue all of those times.

Tony-bobs · #4 05-19-2009, 01:09 PM

forget electronics, just mic the bass? no, no one's gonna bite on that one?

azarias · #5 05-19-2009, 01:18 PM

Definitely grab some new pickups. I have had more than one bass that just didnt sound right with Barts. One ended up with EMGs and it was way better. I have another bass that sounded worse with EMGs. I think you just never know till you try. Each bass seems to be its own universe.
If you really like the bass gut it and start over. It will be fun. 8)

bongomania · #6 05-19-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by adbass

I'm guessing a little EQ might do the trick.

Nope, I've got plenty of EQ devices and none of them alter the basic fact of the tone being "neutered" by the current electronics in the bass. EQ can't magically "put back" that which has been lost from a signal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by adbass

What is it about the amplified sound that you find lacking?

It's hard to put into concrete terms, but essentially it has none of the fullness, roundness, vibrance, upper-end sheen, and balls of the the unamplified tone.

FWIW I have a few other basses, both passive and active, and this is not a problem with them, so it's not the amp.

bongomania · #7 05-19-2009, 01:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tony-bobs

forget electronics, just mic the bass? no, no one's gonna bite on that one?

Believe me, I'm considering it!

dmusic148 · #8 05-19-2009, 01:21 PM

Lose the Barts. Nordies, if they'll fit, would be my first choice.

Darkstrike · #9 05-19-2009, 01:35 PM

Could the barts be wired in parallel?

stflbn · #10 05-19-2009, 01:38 PM

I just can't get into Barts. Much like I just can't get into the whole Sansamp BDDI.

No matter what I do I always feel like those two things are masking what my instrument is really 'saying' and injecting their own character in it's place. I've tried both of the above multiple times and each time I get the same end result. I give up on em'...

:-)

.

SGD Lutherie · #11 05-19-2009, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stflbn

Much like I just can't get into the whole Sansamp BDDI.

+1

They should call it a "mush box". I can't get into those soft sounding "tube" emulators. It's like putting a blanket on the amp.

Back to the original problem. Those Barts might be too dark sounding, and having two tone controls doesn't help either.

But I would think they should be doing a better job than they are. have you looked at the wiring?

Otherwise brighter yet still transparent pickups are the way to go.

That's always been my gripe. I'd use so called "hi-fi" pickups and they never sounded like the bass unplugged. They sounded like the pickups.

walterw · #12 05-19-2009, 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by stflbn

...Much like I just can't get into the whole Sansamp BDDI.

No matter what I do I always feel like those two things are masking what my instrument is really 'saying' and injecting their own character in it's place. I've tried both of the above multiple times and each time I get the same end result. I give up on em'...

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

+1

They should call it a "mush box". I can't get into those soft sounding "tube" emulators. It's like putting a blanket on the amp.

you 9-string coffee table players are all the same

for a 4-string and one brain cell rocker like me

, the sansamp rules! it sounds like a tube amp and gives the bass it's own "place" in a rock band mix.

as a small-club soundman, i'm always happy to see one in the bass player's rig, because i know the bass will be present, full, and even in the house mix.

SGD Lutherie · #13 05-19-2009, 06:54 PM

Hey, I play a 5 string! And I've been performing in clubs since I was 16, and I'm 51 now.

So I ain't no bedroom wanker!

I just don't like tube amps much for bass. My first good amp was a 60's B-15N, and I still have a big ol' Mesa Boogie 400+. To me it's too soft and slow. And my bass is already warm sounding, even direct to the PA, so I don't need any artificial warming. I do use a BK Butler BlueTube pedal with a 12AU7 in it when I want a little tube drive.

Most bass is recorded direct, and that's the tone I go for, unless I want a special effect, like distortion. If DI was good enough for James Jamerson and Paul McCartney, it's good enough for me!

So a nice clean present bass signal should fit into the mix just fine! Just as the rest of the instruments do. Do you run acoustic guitars, drums or vocals through a tube amp to make them fit into the mix?

The real problem with live bass is guitar players using too much low end, and sound men who do the drum mix first, and then try to shoehorn the bass into that.

It doesn't work that way. So you go to see a live band and you sure can hear that kick drum.. but where's the bass?

But you have to know how to get a good bass tone. Just the right amount of mids to be heard without stepping on the mix. And you have to have finesse in your playing. People like tube amps and Sansamps because it covers up sloppy playing!

walterw · #14 05-19-2009, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Hey, I play a 5 string! And I've been performing in clubs since I was 16, and I'm 51 now.

So I ain't no bedroom wanker!

no no, i meant the coffee table was around your neck, not that you're sitting in front of one playing bass!

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

The real problem with live bass is guitar players using too much low end, and sound men who do the drum mix first, and then try to shoehorn the bass into that.

It doesn't work that way. So you go to see a live band and you sure can hear that kick drum.. but where's the bass?

ain't that the truth. as they say over on PSW, "no one goes home humming the kick drum." the way i see it, people really dance to the bass, and the kick is supposed to provide an attack at the front of some of the bass notes. that's how songs actually sound on the radio, and that's how i try to mix when i'm doing sound.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

But you have to know how to get a good bass tone. Just the right amount of mids to be heard without stepping on the mix. And you have to have finesse in your playing. People like tube amps and Sansamps because it covers up sloppy playing!

oh so you've heard me playing bass then

joeyl · #15 05-19-2009, 07:15 PM

I would try the Barts one by one wired straight to the jack. You might be surprised, like SGD said, the VTVT may be the culprit, maybe try a VVT setup?

WyrdoBass · #16 05-19-2009, 07:26 PM

Surprised no one suggested this. Is installing a piezo pickup an option for you?

SGD Lutherie · #17 05-19-2009, 07:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by walterw

no no, i meant the coffee table was around your neck, not that you're sitting in front of one playing bass!

My coffee table is made of glass!

Nothing wrong with nice wood on a bass... Fender used alder because it was cheap, but it's also a nice sounding wood. So I'm using cherry and maple because they sound good too.

But my "other" bass looks like this:

No coffee table there!

Or how about a simple passive bolt on:

bongomania · #18 05-19-2009, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WyrdoBass

Surprised no one suggested this. Is installing a piezo pickup an option for you?

Oh it's an option, sure, but so far I have hated the sound of piezos. All clack and boom. The only exception where it seems to work well tonally IMO is hollowbodies.

I guess I shouldn't rule it out, though.

WarriorJoe7 · #19 05-19-2009, 07:49 PM

Just as a test you could come straight out of one pickup and into the amp.

The way i have done this is cut the pickup wire and then uses electrical tape to tape one lead to the tip and the other to the ring of a long instrument cable. Then plug it in.

Joe

WarriorJoe7 · #20 05-19-2009, 07:52 PM

Also you can do what I mentioned in combination with another trick. mount a different pickup ABOVE the strings temporarily and come out of that. Some really good double sided tape and some small blocks of wood should do the trick.

Then you could temporarily try any pickup you like (as long as you don't mind not being able to play directly over that pickup.)