Pickup Cost?

[kegbarnacle]

As I've looked at winding my own pickups for a couple of projects, the question occurred to me - what makes pickups cost so much? Brand name? A good set of pickups will run you between $150 and $300, with some options costing more than that.

Stewmac sells a 1/2 lb roll of pickup wire for $30, and appears to be one of the more expensive options. That's enough for 5-6 single coils. Other sites sell 5 lb rolls for around $250. The magnets are around $1 - $3 a piece, if you're not buying in any bulk. The rest of the components are similarly cheap. Even if you multiply these numbers several times to account for "premium" wire and magnets that Stewmac presumably doesn't have, it seems like pickups are a big money maker.

And as for R & D costs - the basic designs really haven't changed a whole lot in the last 60 years. We have humbuckers and single coils. Other than that, R & D is what - try out some different magnets? Some different wire?

Labor? A good winding machine is probably the biggest expense, costing several hundred dollars. A big expense for a guy in his garage, but not really a big expense for a viable business. That takes the bulk of the labor down to a few minutes.

It seems like Hi Fi audio components. If it's not really expensive, no one believes it's any good.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by kegbarnacle

As I've looked at winding my own pickups for a couple of projects, the question occurred to me - what makes pickups cost so much? Brand name? A good set of pickups will run you between $150 and $300, with some options costing more than that.

Why are basses so expensive when the parts are maybe $300?

Stewmac sells a 1/2 lb roll of pickup wire for $30, and appears to be one of the more expensive options. That's enough for 5-6 single coils. Other sites sell 5 lb rolls for around $250. The magnets are around $1 - $3 a piece, if you're not buying in any bulk. The rest of the components are similarly cheap. Even if you multiply these numbers several times to account for "premium" wire and magnets that Stewmac presumably doesn't have, it seems like pickups are a big money maker.

That's hobby prices. I get 5 lbs of wire for $30-50. I get magnets between .30 (ceramics) and $1 (neos). But I have to buy several hundred at a time. Sometimes the shipping cost is almost as much as the magnets.

Do you want plastic covers? You can get them from Asian suppliers, and then you have to buy in bulk. If you want to have custom plastic parts made, like Dimarzio and Duncan do, you have to play thousands of dollars to have the tooling made and then have them injection molded. EMG actually have their own injection molding machine on site. How much do you think that cost? I bet a bunch!

And as for R & D costs - the basic designs really haven't changed a whole lot in the last 60 years. We have humbuckers and single coils. Other than that, R & D is what - try out some different magnets? Some different wire?

That depends, are you buying copies of Fender pickups, or something original? If it's something original you are paying for the design. You want a Lace Bassbar or Q-Tuner, where else are you going to get those cheaper? Jazz Bass pickups are a dime a dozen, so it's all about supply and demand. Sometimes you are paying for the name/reputation.

Labor? A good winding machine is probably the biggest expense, costing several hundred dollars. A big expense for a guy in his garage, but not really a big expense for a viable business. That takes the bulk of the labor down to a few minutes.

It seems like Hi Fi audio components. If it's not really expensive, no one believes it's any good.

Lets put things into perspective. I make all my own parts that go into the pickups. I have to buy raw steel bars for the blades, plastic for the bobbins. Copper clad circuit board material, connectors, wire, shrink tube etc.

I cut a batch of blades at the same time. Then I have to grind and polish the edges. Then I have to cut plastic and fabricate bobbins. Winding takes about 10 minutes per coil. Then you have to wire them up and test them, and then they go into the wax pot for 10 minutes. So I can make several sets pickups in a day.

But you don't just pay for parts and labor when you buy something. The builder has to make a profit, and the price of consumer items is set by the market. You can get very cheap pickups. Big companies like Fender pay pennies for pickups. But the quality isn't always so great. Then if you price your product too low, people think it's junk. Too high and you are elitist. If you are a company that's big enough, you have expenses. You have to pay employees, and then pay for their insurance. You need insurance in case someone hurts themselves at the job. You have rent for the building, and utilities. You might be paying back loans for the machines and tools. You also have to ship your products to the customers/stores. Even small builders like me have expenses.

In the end you want to make a living. You have to decide how much an hour you want to be making. If you sell hundreds of pickups, then you can lower your prices. But not so low that you hurt your image, because then people wont buy them.

Personally I try to sell the pickups I make at a fair price. Not so low that I would put myself out of business, but I'm not trying to rip people off either.

[i_got_a_mohawk]

+1

[rumblinbass]

I'm sure SGD put everything into perspective...
I wouldn't think it's just the cost of the parts but the also labor that goes into making pickups. it is a pretty labor intensive product.

[SGD Lutherie]

I'd also like to take a moment and sound like the 52 year old I am.. back in my day you couldn't get a good bass for the price you can now! And the choices were limited. Replacement pickups? Ha! Maybe Fender or Gibson, or Guild. That was it.

So things have never been so good for bass players as they are now.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by rumblinbass

I'm sure SGD put everything into perspective...
I wouldn't think it's just the cost of the parts but the also labor that goes into making pickups. it is a pretty labor intensive product.

R&D counts too. I can't tell you how many hours are spent trying out new ideas. I spent months on my neo Jazz pickups, making prototypes and winding, cutting off the wire, rewinding, and lets not forget the hair you pull out! It's been like 2 years on the Wal clone project.

In the end you might get something you like, and a box full of rejects!

[FunkMetalBass]

SGD, I'd like two custom 8-string Quad humbuckers (like the Nordy MM.4, except for 8-strings) please. Accordings to your costs with 9.2% tax, that'll be $31.16 for both + s/h (fedex next-day plz)

[kegbarnacle]

I've built a few basses from scratch as a woodworking hobbyist, and though my work is not par with the pros, I've gotten an idea of how much work goes into it.

I get the upcharge on a bass, and think that it's totally fair in most cases. Lots of work goes into it.

But for a pickup? You said yourself that you can make several sets in a day, whereas basses I would imagine take you several months each, minimum. And you make all of your own pickup components from scratch - I'd guess that most are buying magnets, flatwork, etc., ready to go - at least for the P and J shapes, many humbuckers. How many pickups can one of the big name pickup manufacturers turn out, relative to the demand?


If you want Q tuners, a Wal clone, etc., OK. That's gonna take some work. Your basic P, J, Humbucker though? I mean, honest question - how many years do you have designing your J pickups?

[kegbarnacle]

Also - I'm not trying to be snarky or anything. Really just trying to understand this component of basses due to the fact that I have several basses on my own workbench and it's getting near time to put some pickups in them.

Usually when I've taken on a hobby I've found that I really haven't saved a ton of money. It's more been enjoyment of the process, learning, etc. By the time you add up my time, potential tools acquisition, etc., I haven't really come out ahead as far as cost goes.

When I started looking at putting pickups into 3 or 4 projects simultaneously, it's pretty expensive. Whereas I could wind a few J pickups for seemingly massive cost savings, even at hobby prices. That's not the norm - that's basically what I'm wondering.

[JackANSI]

I always look at it as that is the cost of the mojo that went into a pickup/preamp.

Sure anyone can wind their own pickup, probably for pretty cheap. But if you want a certain mojo that a bartolini brings, or the awesome mojo of a set of EMG's , You can spend months of your time in the shop trying to replicate, or just pay to play in a much, much shorter amount of time..


Of course if you have no idea what you want, and the disposable income to do it, why not wind 10-20 pickups to find something you like?



But I do see your point. The parts are worth much, much, much less than the whole. If I could get away with markups like a pickup maker in my day job, I'd be rich beyond my wildest dreams..

[rumblinbass]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

R&D counts too. I can't tell you how many hours are spent trying out new ideas. I spent months on my neo Jazz pickups, making prototypes and winding, cutting off the wire, rewinding, and lets not forget the hair you pull out! It's been like 2 years on the Wal clone project.

In the end you might get something you like, and a box full of rejects!

RND - of course! IME limited experience though that is not typically figured into the list price of a product. In the end you try to estimate how long it will take to break even and start making a profit.

I have lost my fair share of hair prototyping and development.

EDIT:
Wal clone? Nice. I am very interested in that...

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by kegbarnacle

And you make all of your own pickup components from scratch - I'd guess that most are buying magnets, flatwork, etc., ready to go - at least for the P and J shapes, many humbuckers. How many pickups can one of the big name pickup manufacturers turn out, relative to the demand?

If you want Q tuners, a Wal clone, etc., OK. That's gonna take some work. Your basic P, J, Humbucker though? I mean, honest question - how many years do you have designing your J pickups?

My Jazz pickups are not made like Fenders. They are mini humbuckers with dual blades and neo magnets. I buy magnets, but I make the flatwork. Actually it's not flatwork. I was making them that way for a while with laser cut flatwork, but was having issues with it. Now I have a box of flats I can't use that cost me a couple of hundred bucks.

Besides having to figure out how to fit that all in the jazz cover, you have to figure out how much wire and what gauge to wind on it. The size and strength of the magnets, the alloy of the steel used, etc. I don't put the R&D costs into the pickup, but I'm also not making any money making prototypes. But without prototypes I wouldn't have any models of pickups to sell.

And then how to make the parts. You can make anything if you can get the parts made. I can't afford to have things injection molded, so I make them by hand.

The Jazz pickups took maybe eight months. They are based on my larger humbuckers and some others I have made, and they took about three years altogether to get where I am now. It didn't take three years to get a working pickup, but they have evolved over that time. But I had several other designs that didn't make it past the first few prototypes. I'd get it finished, and it wasn't exactly what I wanted... you try tweaking it a bit, and then you cut your losses and move on and try something different.

When I priced my pickups I looked at the price of similar pickups, and went lower than some of them (like the other neo pickup). I'm certainly not getting rich making pickups, but I enjoy doing it.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by rumblinbass

EDIT:
Wal clone? Nice. I am very interested in that...

Where have you been?

Won the Wal pickup on ebay!!!

To make a very long story shorter, WarriorJoe bought a Wal pickup on eBay. At some point he sent it to me to reverse engineer. So i started looking for ways to make the parts, and then with the help of another builder who is making a Wal inspired bass, got the correct magnets and stuff.

Meanwhile I'm working on a Wal/Alembic style preamp to go with it.

I should be done with all this very soon.

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

I can't afford to have things injection molded, so I make them by hand.

I'm really surprised by that...

I know industrial capacity is in huge excess around Michigan, but I could just about afford to have something like that injection molded for a home project... and I don't make much money.

Is injection molding (and mold making) that expensive of an endeavour in that area? Around here I think (with CAD files) I could get a pickup cover mold made and a few hundred pieces run in excess capacity time for probably less than $500.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by aborgman

I'm really surprised by that...

I know industrial capacity is in huge excess around Michigan, but I could just about afford to have something like that injection molded for a home project... and I don't make much money.

Is injection molding (and mold making) that expensive of an endeavour in that area? Around here I think (with CAD files) I could get a pickup cover mold made and a few hundred pieces run in excess capacity time for probably less than $500.

I got a quote of $1200 once, and that was in Hong Kong. In the states it's much higher. I'm a one man operation, so that's not in my budget currently.

I just Googled "cost of injection molding" and I see things like this:

http://dragonjewelinc.com/home4.htm

A simple plaque is $3200.00.

Here's another:

http://www.protomold.com/?ls=PSGPM1&...FciA5QodOlL9xg

"Prices from $1495"

The only cheap molding I've seen was SLA (stereo lithography), and that's not very good. My former partner in SGD is an industrial designer and prints me prototype parts all the time. I did the first neo pickups that way. We were working on a cover model from his 3D printer, but the resolution isn't that great, so it needs a lot of work before you can make a mold from it.

Here's a custom pickup with SLA bobbins:

[aborgman]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

I got a quote of $1200 once, and that was in Hong Kong. In the states it's much higher. I'm a one man operation, so that's not in my budget currently.

I just Googled "cost of injection molding" and I see things like this:

http://dragonjewelinc.com/home4.htm

A simple plaque is $3200.00.

Here's another:

http://www.protomold.com/?ls=PSGPM1&...FciA5QodOlL9xg

"Prices from $1495"

Heck... like I said... if I had the CAD files I could drop by a dozen CNC/machine houses, say "Hey, make up this mold" and I'd probably pay material plus $50.

I might have to wait a while to get it.

Same thing with using the mold - I'd stop in local, small (<100 person) injection molding shop, give 'em the mold, and say "run this in your off time".

Now - if you need a designer to do the CAD work, that is where I'd expect the costs to come in.

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Here's a custom pickup with SLA bobbins:

We just mill our bobbins (LVDT's, not pickups) out of solid stock - it's cheaper.

[rumblinbass]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

Where have you been?

Won the Wal pickup on ebay!!!

To make a very long story shorter, WarriorJoe bought a Wal pickup on eBay. At some point he sent it to me to reverse engineer. So i started looking for ways to make the parts, and then with the help of another builder who is making a Wal inspired bass, got the correct magnets and stuff.

Meanwhile I'm working on a Wal/Alembic style preamp to go with it.

I should be done with all this very soon.

briefly skimmed the thread. wow! not sure how that slipped by me. very impressive.

[amosjones]

To throw my thoughts at the original question. Pick Up pricing sounds like this
$5 - parts
$150 - knowing how to stick them together and make it work right.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by aborgman

Heck... like I said... if I had the CAD files I could drop by a dozen CNC/machine houses, say "Hey, make up this mold" and I'd probably pay material plus $50.

I might have to wait a while to get it.

Same thing with using the mold - I'd stop in local, small (<100 person) injection molding shop, give 'em the mold, and say "run this in your off time".

Now - if you need a designer to do the CAD work, that is where I'd expect the costs to come in.

Oh my buddy can do the CAD work.... he does it in SolidWorks.

I'll have to check around for some shops. Thanks for the tip.

maybe I'll get those ATK covers done soon...

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by rumblinbass

briefly skimmed the thread. wow! not sure how that slipped by me. very impressive.

It's a long a convoluted thread... that's why.