pickup positioning question

MaxOnBass · #1 11-05-2009, 11:39 PM

Hello TB, new guy here

I'll be brief with my question: I'm planning a custom bass soon and I am unsure about pickup positioning. My goal is a very thick and very defined sound with some growl. Think a bit thicker and bassier Warwick Thumb... Three options I've ended up with are: MM+J like on a Warwick Jazzman bass, only with the MM moved a bit to the bridge, MM+P with the MM almost next to the bridge and P closer to neck (heard and saw it only once, blew me away) and the third one is two slanted soapbars next to the bridge (like a Warwick Thumb 6). So which one would be the best option?

Pickups will be Barts (not yet sure which ones), wood combo will be bubinga with a zebrano top for body and wenge neck with still undecided stringers and a wenge fb, NT 34" bass.

I would be very thankful for any kind of info (esp if you explain your choice in the poll).

All the best,
Max

PilbaraBass · #2 11-05-2009, 11:44 PM

what makes you think that any of these combinations will get you what you want.

Go with a pair of Nordstrand Big Splits...there's your definition and bottom end...

Get a good preamp...this way you can dial in a lot of whatever you want.

Get yourself a kick butt rig...there's your thick...

MaxOnBass · #3 11-05-2009, 11:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PilbaraBass

what makes you think that any of these combinations will get you what you want.

Go with a pair of Nordstrand Big Splits...there's your definition and bottom end...

Get a good preamp...this way you can dial in a lot of whatever you want.

Get yourself a kick butt rig...there's your thick...

first, thank you for your input

Nordstrands are okay, but I am in love with the Bart sound... Preamp will probably be an Aguilar OBP-3, so that 's covered, and the rig I plan on getting when I finish with the bass will probably be MarkBass or Trace, so that's covered too..

Well, hearing a few basses with a setup like that sounded pretty good to me and close to what I want so I wanted to ask people here to help me find out what did I hear (as you say, pickups could have made that tone...)

PilbaraBass · #4 11-06-2009, 01:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MaxOnBass

first, thank you for your input

Nordstrands are okay, but I am in love with the Bart sound... Preamp will probably be an Aguilar OBP-3, so that 's covered, and the rig I plan on getting when I finish with the bass will probably be MarkBass or Trace, so that's covered too..

Well, hearing a few basses with a setup like that sounded pretty good to me and close to what I want so I wanted to ask people here to help me find out what did I hear (as you say, pickups could have made that tone...)

ok...2 bart soaps, then...NP...

I understand...
Aggie OBP-3 is more than fine...

And both the MarkBass & Trace Elliott are good, clean modern-sounding amps so you'll get a variety of tones...question then is what cabs? I recommend for you a 2x10 + 1x15 setup (at least begin with the 1x15, if you're not going too "big" to begin with)

throbgod13 · #5 11-06-2009, 01:51 AM

if you really liked the neck and MM spread out, do that.. it really depends on what harmonics you are trying to pick up.. and what coils of the pickup you are going to use.. and if those coils are predominant in the pickup..

placement does make quite a difference, overall..

MaxOnBass · #6 11-06-2009, 04:27 AM

@PilbaraBass
okay, got that, thanks again

I was planning on buying a Markbass 210 HF or EBS 210 (neo or regular) because I like what they pump out.. in my position cabs aren't too important since I 99% of times go through the PA (DI'd out) and my amp is just a monitor.
@throbgod13
yeah, that setup sounded awesome but I am more worried that it was the amp, pre or wood giving that sound because that pup config sounds a lot different in my head (but my head... it's not one of the smartest ones). I know that the dude was using the MM in all 4 splits (serial, parallel, single 1, single 2) and it retained the original sound character I like.. And since I'm not too informed about this subject, I don't know what to do :/

throbgod13 · #7 11-06-2009, 01:21 PM

you should talk to an experienced luthier about what you are attempting to do..

pickups are usually placed under the harmonic intervals.. depending on where you place the pickup will determine the tone you get from that placement.. and this is why there are so many different pickup placements.. the pre, wood and amp are going to influence the overall tone, but the pickup placement will help determine the tonal character of the bass..

think of a jazz bass and a pbass.. or, two jazz basses with one having the 70's bridge pickup placement.. given that the woods are the same, they still do not sound the same..

regardless of what amp i plug my jazz bass into, it sounds like a "jazz bass".. the construction and the pickup placement determines that specific tonal character..

this isn't to say that all basses of one model sound the same, but there are certain characteristics that determine one model from another..

look at the placement of MM basses.. since you are intent on using a MM pickup.. the scale is the same as the bass you are building.. are the pickups directly under the harmonic intervals, or is the centerline of the humbucker favor one side or the other of that interval?? or does it tilt across the interval line?? which way does it tilt??

look at the basses you prefer the most, and study why the pickups are placed the way that they are..

you can get very wrapped up and confused if you place a huge amount of emphasis on preamps, amps, cabs.. which is fine, if you want to.. but, the placement is going to have more of an effect on "who" the bass is, rather than what a pre, amp or cab will do..

talk to some of the luthiers here about placement..

MaxOnBass · #8 11-06-2009, 03:39 PM

@throbgod13: Wow. I will surely talk to some luthiers around me about that, I didn't know all that stuff about harmonic intervals... And I will sure look into it myself. Thank you (a LOT) for your help, you've made this very clear for me. When I decide on the pickup type and placement, I will post here and I would more than welcome your opinion on the issue.
Thanks again,
Max

Richard Lindsey · #9 11-06-2009, 03:58 PM

ACtually, the whole harmonic intervals thing--by which I assume you mean "nodes"--is pretty close to meaningless, at least as it's usually stated. The reason is that as soon as you fret a note on a string, all the nodes on that string move. Thus, even if you started with your pickup under a node, and even assuming that that mattered or was provably a good thing, just fret one note and that placement is gone.

M0ses · #10 11-06-2009, 03:59 PM

Indeed. What you are asking here is NOT a simple thing by any means. Pickup placement is all about nodes and anodes. Sort of. At each point, the relative amplitudes of each frequency are different, because the waves have different periods. There's no one on the string that you can get all the frequencies present at the exact relative volumes in which they are present. To do that you'd have to get input from the entire length of the string. So you have to figure out what mixture of which frequencies you're looking for. Once you've got that, you can figure where on the bass you want the pickups - but of course you can't forget about pickup response, because it's not a perfect transmitter and will emphpasize some frequencies more than others.

Figuring this sort of thing takes a lot of experience. Picking pickups is practically guesswork - once you've got 'em, you can wire them un-mounted and leave the bass un-routed, and you can rig them ABOVE the strings and move them up and down as you like, to get samples of how they sound from different places. Of course, there are plenty of other factors involved in tone. The biggest is fingers. I'm not one of those guys who thinks the tone is ALL in the fingers, but if you don't think that it is a huge factor (one of the biggest, whithout a doubt) then you're just plain wrong. Certainly there are other factors. However, with a really high-end cable (probably more than anyone really wants to spend on a cable) and the right amp-cab combo, you can get a pretty darn "flat" EQ going.

A Jazz bass will always sound like a Jazz bass, but when you get down to it that's really a very general category, as is any category by model. A Jazz bass can make a lot of different noises, as can a P or a 'Ray or any model, but they all (all of one model) generally sound similar in some way. This is due to a combination of factors, the exact defining of which definitely surpasses my knowledge. What if you put a 'Ray pickup in an otherwise P body? Would it sound like a Ray or a P? Probably neither. My guess, though, is that it would sound MORE like a Ray than a P. The differences in construction of the two is much less than the differences in the pickup and placement. I've never done it, though.

Sorry for the probably off-topic book. The first paragraph and a half will hopefully be helpful though...

greenboy · #11 11-06-2009, 04:16 PM

One thing that is consistent about a certain pickup location, though, is that as you play up the neck on each string, the relationships of harmonic reinforcements and cancellations are changing the same as they will be on another similarly laid-out bass. So while there is no "sweet spot" that keeps the same harmonic relationships in balance all the way up the neck, it does act as a filtering algorithm of sorts that "processes" according to that layout, and thus some family resemblances can carry through.

Richard Lindsey · #12 11-06-2009, 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenboy

One thing that is consistent about a certain pickup location, though, is that as you play up the neck on each string, the relationships of harmonic reinforcements and cancellations are changing the same as they will be on another similarly laid-out bass. So while there is no "sweet spot" that keeps the same harmonic relationships in balance all the way up the neck, it does act as a filtering algorithm of sorts that "processes" according to that layout, and thus some family resemblances can carry through.

True.

MaxOnBass · #13 11-07-2009, 03:41 AM

first you guys got me pretty confused, then I read everything a couple more times.. now it makes a lot more sense.. Thank you for the help