Pickup/Pre Recommendations for Warwick $$?

[Unrepresented]

Search limits me to three character minimum so it's hard to search for "$$" or "MM." Apologies if this is a repost.

I have a 4 string Warwick Corvette $$ that I feel overall is two dark in tone, and I don't like the frequencies that the two band preamp controls. It has a pair of MM style MEC's, volume, blend, and a two band eq.

My other bass, a MIA Jazz gets mmmmmuch more playing time because it cuts through a mix and to my ears has better tone, even though I honestly have come to enjoy the ergonomics of the warwick much more.

What can I do in terms of pre/pick up replacement to give myself something that will give me a more satisfying tone? Something brighter, more aggressive, and more present?

The other priorities I have are that I'd like to continue to be able to switch between the split pickup options, and would like to keep things as close to "drop-in" as possible.

From what I've been able to find it sounds like my choices are:

Barts -- too dark from what I've read
EMG's
Nords -- Someone wrote that they're dark as well
Basslines -- will these do the split coil options?

I haven't even started reading up on pre's yet...

What are some choices I have for giving my $$ a little more life?

EDIT: Wanted to clarify that I'm a heavy fingerstyle player....

[Unrepresented]

I have read over a few of the MEC replacement threads and hope I'm not asking a commonly asked question here. If I am can someone please direct me towards a good post that covers this subject?

[Unrepresented]

Bump...

Is it my breath?

[Mika]

The Seymour Duncan MM pickups are dual coil with four conductors, so they'd be as close to drop-in as possible. The AlNiCo magnet version (SMB-4A) probably won't improve brightness, but the ceramic magnet version (SMB-4D) might. Although I'm not sure if it's dramatically different from the stock MECs... I had a Streamer $$ for a while and liked the pickups but hated the MEC onboard EQ.

The EMG-MMTW is pretty much the only choice from EMG's lineup if you want to have the option of single coil modes. These pickups are switchable between dual coil and single coil mode, but series / single coil / parallel switching can't be done as the pickup is active and hardwired except for the dual coil / single coil switching possibility.

I have an EMG-MMCS in my Streamer Limited Edition. It's the same as the MMTW but dual coil only. I decided to give it a try as the stock Bart MM pickup was overemphasizing the mid-heavy characteristics of the bass due to pickup placement. The stock Bart is probably a custom pickup as there's no model number on the bottom.

Preamp-wise I agree with you that the MEC isn't voiced too well. I've had Aguilar onboard EQs in two Warwicks (an OBP-3 in a Corvette Std 5 and an OBP-2 in the Streamer Ltd. Edition) so I'd recommend trying either of those or the OBP-1 if you're happy with boost-only tone controls.

Before you start spending money on pickups and onboard EQs, I'd suggest trying a few different types of string sets. A fresh set of stainless steel roundwounds might do the trick. I've ended up using medium-gauge DR Lo-Riders, but there are plenty of other choices as well.


Edit:
If the wiring diagram on the Warwick website is valid, the blend pot in the Corvette $$ is a 25 kohm log / reverse log pot. This is quite small in value for passive pickups and some treble might be lost due to loading.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Mika

The Seymour Duncan MM pickups are dual coil with four conductors, so they'd be as close to drop-in as possible. The AlNiCo magnet version (SMB-4A) probably won't improve brightness, but the ceramic magnet version (SMB-4D) might. Although I'm not sure if it's dramatically different from the stock MECs... I had a Streamer $$ for a while and liked the pickups but hated the MEC onboard EQ.

The EMG-MMTW is pretty much the only choice from EMG's lineup if you want to have the option of single coil modes. These pickups are switchable between dual coil and single coil mode, but series / single coil / parallel switching can't be done as the pickup is active and hardwired except for the dual coil / single coil switching possibility.

I have an EMG-MMCS in my Streamer Limited Edition. It's the same as the MMTW but dual coil only. I decided to give it a try as the stock Bart MM pickup was overemphasizing the mid-heavy characteristics of the bass due to pickup placement. The stock Bart is probably a custom pickup as there's no model number on the bottom.

Preamp-wise I agree with you that the MEC isn't voiced too well. I've had Aguilar onboard EQs in two Warwicks (an OBP-3 in a Corvette Std 5 and an OBP-2 in the Streamer Ltd. Edition) so I'd recommend trying either of those or the OBP-1 if you're happy with boost-only tone controls.

Before you start spending money on pickups and onboard EQs, I'd suggest trying a few different types of string sets. A fresh set of stainless steel roundwounds might do the trick. I've ended up using medium-gauge DR Lo-Riders, but there are plenty of other choices as well.


Edit:
If the wiring diagram on the Warwick website is valid, the blend pot in the Corvette $$ is a 25 kohm log / reverse log pot. This is quite small in value for passive pickups and some treble might be lost due to loading.

Thanks for your reply! I was beginning to think this was a pariah topic...

The first thing I did to try and liven the bass up was some new strings and a professional setup. I actually did throw on some Lo-Riders but prefer the feel of the nickle-plated so that's what I went with. Still too dark for my ears, although like I said my fingers love playing it.

I've been trying to find more info and it looks like the Aguilar pre you mentioned is a pretty popular option. Did you feel it changed your tone much or was it primarily useful for altering the eq boost/cut frequencies from the stock locations?

Did the Aguilar preamps have any issue with reusing the same stock knobs and tone pots/locations? I also couldn't find a real explanation between the differences of the OBP-1 and the OBP-2 other than that the 2 was smaller and that it had a slightly different treble position. What made you select that model?

Thanks for your reviews of the EMG's and Seymour Duncans you've had experience with, it sounds like those are the more aggressively voiced pick ups available of the five or six big manufacturers. I'll have to try and read through some reviews on them.

Here's my last question: In your opinion, am I actually going to be able to get a brighter sound out of this bass through pickup/pre replacement or is it fundamentally "dark" because of the woods/design/mojo?

Thanks again for your (and anyone else's) reply,

Justin

[Mika]

Originally Posted by Unrepresented

Thanks for your reply! I was beginning to think this was a pariah topic...

The first thing I did to try and liven the bass up was some new strings and a professional setup. I actually did throw on some Lo-Riders but prefer the feel of the nickle-plated so that's what I went with. Still too dark for my ears, although like I said my fingers love playing it.

I've been trying to find more info and it looks like the Aguilar pre you mentioned is a pretty popular option. Did you feel it changed your tone much or was it primarily useful for altering the eq boost/cut frequencies from the stock locations?

Did the Aguilar preamps have any issue with reusing the same stock knobs and tone pots/locations? I also couldn't find a real explanation between the differences of the OBP-1 and the OBP-2 other than that the 2 was smaller and that it had a slightly different treble position. What made you select that model?

Thanks for your reviews of the EMG's and Seymour Duncans you've had experience with, it sounds like those are the more aggressively voiced pick ups available of the five or six big manufacturers. I'll have to try and read through some reviews on them.

Here's my last question: In your opinion, am I actually going to be able to get a brighter sound out of this bass through pickup/pre replacement or is it fundamentally "dark" because of the woods/design/mojo?

Thanks again for your (and anyone else's) reply,

Justin

The Aguilars seem to be quite transparent when set flat and the EQ voicing of the OBP-2 is in my opinion far better compared to the MEC 2-band. I chose the OBP-2 because I wanted the option of cutting treble as the OBP-1 is boost-only. The Aguilar OBP-2 and OBP-3 require 50 kohm linear taper pots for the tone controls, so you'll need to swap out the stock pots which are 100 kohm linear taper.

One pickup manufacturer which I forgot to mention is Delano. They seem to make good products, but unfortunately I have no personal experience so I can't really recommend any specific pickups. Delano has seven different types of 4-string MM pickups in their lineup.

In my opinion the combination of woods shouldn't be the culprit for the lack of brightness. If you change the onboard EQ, I'd suggest changing all the pots while you're at it. I dislike blend controls because they always introduce some series resistance and therefore signal loss in the center position.

bestbassgear.com sells pre-wired Aguilar setups if you want to minimize installation time.
http://www.bestbassgear.com/aguilar-obp2-preamp.htm

[Unrepresented]

Update:

I took it into my luthier who's going to be out of commission for the next week or so with NAMM demands. His feelings were that it's more of a pickup issue than a preamp one. Said he's dealt with this on various 'Wicks and 'Rays and that the ceramic Seymour Duncan's have brightened up the sound a lot in cases of "dark" instruments. He said he'd put a call into his SD rep to confirm but said start with the P'ups and work your way out from there, unless the SD rep says there'd be conflicts.

Now, I have a GREAT deal of respect for my luthier, he's one of the top cats in San Diego and has a great reputation. However, for the record he's a Seymour Duncan guy, definitely has a bias towards their products. I'm not sure if he's dealt with Delano's or has much experience with Nordstrands. He poo poo'd the EMG's because of the amount of work involved in reconfiguring everything from active to passive.

My own research on the ceramics has led me to be concerned about two issues that seem to come up in reviews:

A) Brittle

B) Hifi

Brittle obviously is something I'm trying to avoid and that's half my problem with the treble frequency of the preamp is that it is IMO a brittle portion of the spectrum, and combined with my heavy right hand it is part of my problem with the tone of this bass. I can play lighter, but I LOOOOVE the sound of a digging into my jazz with the pickups running serial, tone wide open. It'd be nice to have something that I don't have to swap up techniques with in order to get usable tone.

Hifi is also a work that frightens me. I consider myself to be quite "LoFi" in my overall rig and tone. It'd definitely be nice to have some diversity in tones (half of why I bought this bass in the first place) but when I think of words to describe the sound I generally am after "hifi" isn't one of them. But, if it'll make this bass more even in terms of cutting through a mix, it's worth a shot right?

Sorry for the long post just trying to give anyone out there reading this as much info as they can to try and help me out with this.

Thanks,

Justin

[Unrepresented]

Not that anyone showed any real interest in this previously, but I just got my $$ back from my luthier.

His sales rep convinced him to start with the pickups, replaced the stock MEC ceramic MM's with Basslines ceramics.

My first experience was that when the onboard pre is engaged, it's MUCH less brittle. I keep turning the high pot up to get more presence instead of down to reduce the gliss, and string noise. The frequencies emphasized seem to be immensely more usable, and while still "hifi" sounding, are much more approachable to my ears and fingers.

Downsides: my bypassed preamp tone is still dull and dark.

Now, for the record, the strings need to be replaced, so some of the issues may be a result of having less sizzle off the strings, for both the active and passive tones.

Any questions I'd be happy to answer, just figured all two of you who were interested in this thread were dying for an update.

[Aharon]

hmmmmm this was an interesting read.

I own a warwick rockbass corvette classic 5 and have been toying with the idea of sticking a ceramic MM at the bridge. I am also a heavy handed player and have the string noise issues.

I would be interested in a detailed report, including amp settings, volume etc.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by Aharon

hmmmmm this was an interesting read.

I own a warwick rockbass corvette classic 5 and have been toying with the idea of sticking a ceramic MM at the bridge. I am also a heavy handed player and have the string noise issues.

I would be interested in a detailed report, including amp settings, volume etc.

I haven't had a chance to plug into my amp yet. All testing has been through my trusty Joe Meek MQ3 - compressor/3 band eq/pre amp via my hard drive.

Here's a couple quick audio samples:

Here's one with stock MEC's:

http://media.putfile.com/Warwick-2

And here's now:

http://media.putfile.com/WarwickBasslines

The soundcard and preamp were the same on both samples, but the pickup selection and levels were almost certainly different. Apples and oranges, perhaps, but I can dig in more now and get a lot more growl without the piercing highs clacking off the strings. The output is definitely showing hotter on my MQ3, it's practically going into the red even with the gain dropped to almost nothing, and I'm playing with havy blend towards the bridge pickup on the single coil. I lose a little highs and mids with the series and parallel positions but add a lot more lows in exchange.

I can't wait to throw some fresh strings on this weekend and see how it performs in a loud live band setting.

BTW, I believe the stock MEC's I had in it were ceramics. I traded ceramic for ceramic, just with a different design...

[GabeN]

If you're still running the stock strings then there's your problem. They are EXTREMELY dark and go dead super-quick.

I've been curious as to how well an EMG MMTW set would do in a double buck. Not only would you have a double MM set in there but flip the switches and they are basically EMG Jazz pickups so you'd get that jazz sound too. Extremely versatile.

[Dr Illing]

Another very interesting thread read.

I actually have the same dilemma. I've got a Jazz that's incredibly bright and present which I've been playing for the past 8 months or so, and I just picked up the $$ Corvette a couple of weeks ago. I too love the ergonomics and playability of the Wick, but I too feel that it lacks a lot of brightness that I became accustom to with my Jazz.

I don't know too much about active electronics, so I'm not quiet sure if the issue lies in the pickup, preamp, or the tone pot. But I think the darkness in the electronics is due to the treble tone knob adjusting a higher band than it should. I've found that boosting the high-mids on the amp helps add more attack.

I think the real beauty of this model Warwick really lies in the bridge pick up. I run about 75% on the bridge pickup. I run with the bridge pickup in the up (I believe parallel?!?) and the neck pickup in single coil. I feel like the bass sounds best in passive mode for finger style. I think it's got some amazing mid tones.

IMO the woods used in our basses aren't going to have the same snap as Fenders or Musicmen because the wood Warwick uses isn't as hard therefore produce darker tones and growls. My suggestion is that if after some more tweaking you're still not satisfied with the tone that you trade in the $$ for a MM Sterling or a American Deluxe both basses have the smaller and lighter bodies (like the corvette, but a tad bit bigger) and both have snappy active electronics that I think may give you more of the tone you're looking for. Maybe try a G&L L2000 also.

Hope I helped.

Please let me know how the SD compare the MEC.

[Unrepresented]

Originally Posted by GabeN

If you're still running the stock strings then there's your problem. They are EXTREMELY dark and go dead super-quick.

I've been curious as to how well an EMG MMTW set would do in a double buck. Not only would you have a double MM set in there but flip the switches and they are basically EMG Jazz pickups so you'd get that jazz sound too. Extremely versatile.

I swapped out the original strings and had it professionally set up prior to making any alterations.

My luthier advised against the EMG's because of the amount of overhaul necessary. So far, the jazz bass single coil tone has been my favorite since the swap. Previously I felt it sounded thin, now it sounds present.

Originally Posted by Dr Illing

Another very interesting thread read.

I actually have the same dilemma. I've got a Jazz that's incredibly bright and present which I've been playing for the past 8 months or so, and I just picked up the $$ Corvette a couple of weeks ago. I too love the ergonomics and playability of the Wick, but I too feel that it lacks a lot of brightness that I became accustom to with my Jazz.

I don't know too much about active electronics, so I'm not quiet sure if the issue lies in the pickup, preamp, or the tone pot. But I think the darkness in the electronics is due to the treble tone knob adjusting a higher band than it should. I've found that boosting the high-mids on the amp helps add more attack.

I felt that the trebel band was also too harsh and as I said above I had to keep using it as a cut. The two band always felt like I was controlling something that wasn't there naturally in my tone, it was like "tone + harsh highs added on + boomy unconnected lows" so far the highs and lows feel much more integrated into the actual tone, tightening and adding presence instead of booming and adding string noise.

Originally Posted by Dr Illing

I think the real beauty of this model Warwick really lies in the bridge pick up. I run about 75% on the bridge pickup. I run with the bridge pickup in the up (I believe parallel?!?) and the neck pickup in single coil. I feel like the bass sounds best in passive mode for finger style. I think it's got some amazing mid tones.

IMO the woods used in our basses aren't going to have the same snap as Fenders or Musicmen because the wood Warwick uses isn't as hard therefore produce darker tones and growls. My suggestion is that if after some more tweaking you're still not satisfied with the tone that you trade in the $$ for a MM Sterling or a American Deluxe both basses have the smaller and lighter bodies (like the corvette, but a tad bit bigger) and both have snappy active electronics that I think may give you more of the tone you're looking for. Maybe try a G&L L2000 also.

Hope I helped.

Please let me know how the SD compare the MEC.

Warwick still has snap, I feel snap when I'm playing, just like I hear sustain when I'm playing, it just snaps and sustains very differently from my jazz. Much more controlled.

As for swapping basses, I recently tried playing a Stingray again and still found the neck to be extremely unsatisfying. I kept thinking while trying to play the flat and cheap feeling neck (yes, American made EBMM) that with my $$ I should be able to have something comparable to it in tone, even if not identical, only a lot more pleasant to play. I think I've gotten a step of two closer.

[Dr Illing]

Neck neck woods of the $$ are Wenge and Ovangkol which have completely different tonal qualities than EBMM SR and Fenders (Maple/Rosewood)

I wonder what the $$ would should like with standard EBMM pickups.
I'd also like to know what it'd sound like with Nordstrand MM4.2 pickups.

Anyone try this?