Pickup sizes in Fender MIM Jazz basses - new info ?

[GatorDogDoc]

I am planning on changing out the pickups on my 2007/2008 Fender MIM Jazz bass (MZ7xxxxxx), and have read in many posts here that the MIM Fender basses actually have 2 neck-sized pickups (1 in the neck position, 1 in the bridge position), rather than the true neck/bridge pups (where the bridge pup is a little wider). This meant you had to order 2 neck pups or remodel the routs and pickguard to accomodate the larger bridge pup.

I was not looking forward to enlarging the rout and pickguard, etc. So on a whim I called Fender and they connected me to one of their top tech guys, and he told me something that was news to me:

All of the 2005/2006 to present Fender MIM Jazz basses (i.e. serial number MZ5xxxxxx and later) now have 2 different sized pickups-- the usual neck pickup and the slightly larger bridge pickup-- same size as on any other jazz bass.

About half of the 2004/2005 MIM Jazz basses (i.e. MZ4xxxxxx) will have 2 neck pups and half will have true neck/bridge pups.

All MIM Jazz basses with serial numbers before that (i.e. MZ3xxxxxx and earlier) will have the 2 neck pickups.

So, unless you have a Fender with a bogus serial number decal, any currently sold set of jazz pickups (neck + bridge) should fit MZ5xxxxxx and later basses without any modifications.

I've not seen this info specifically posted here or anywhere else and thought the Fender MIM Jazz bass community might like to know!

I'm ordering a set of the DiMarzio DP149s and will try to drop them in .

I'll continue to monitor this thread and update it when I get them and confirm that they fit without modifications, as a service to other Fender MIM Jazz bass owners who may be thinking about doing this. Probably would take about 2 weeks until I can get it done, though.

-GatorDogDoc
I play:
2007/2008 Fender MIM Jazz Bass, Midnight Blue w/ White
2004/2005 Fender Mike Dirnt Precision Bass, Black w/ Black
Acoustic B100 Combo Amp

[DWBass]

I vote this to be a sticky! Great info.

[Clapton is God]

Damn, I thought after 2001 they had two different sizes. Gonna go measure my '01 now. Thanks.

[billiam5billion]

So how will the sound be affected with two neck pups?

[Clapton is God]

I just measured my '01, and they seem to be different sizes.

Neck 91mm (3.6")
Bridge 94mm (3.7")

Can someone measure their USA strat and see what those are? Thanks.

[danomite64]

My '02 MIM definitely has the different length pickups. Common knowledge is the pickup change occurred in 2001. 2006 was another year of changes (upgrades), like rounder body edges, vintage tint necks, etc.; maybe the Fender dude got mixed up.

[danomite64]

Originally Posted by billiam5billion

So how will the sound be affected with two neck pups?

The pickups don't cancel each other out, so there's 60 cycle hum no matter where your knobs are set. My friend's '98 Jazz had that problem, so I put some Seymour Duncans in it for him. The routing was quite easy, actually; I think I just used the sanding bit with my Dremel.

[dave_bass5]

Originally Posted by GatorDogDoc

I'm ordering a set of the DiMarzio DP149s and will try to drop them in .

I'll continue to monitor this thread and update it when I get them and confirm that they fit without modifications, as a service to other Fender MIM Jazz bass owners who may be thinking about doing this. Probably would take about 2 weeks until I can get it done, though.

-GatorDogDoc

Thats some nice info but am i missing something?
Why didnt you just measure YOUR pups to find out if they are different sizes? How is there a danger the ones you have ordered wont fit if you have ordered the right set, based on what you have already?

No offence meant but i find it a bit confusing.

[walterw]

the older mexi basses with the two same-size pickups won't take proper pickups without a little bit of pickguard and body dremeling.

the crappy pickup they used two of was actually not quite right for neck or bridge.

the easy way to tell is to look at the polepieces; the newer correctly-sized pickups will have raised poles under the D and A strings. (while not as nice as USA pickups, these are still a big improvement, and will hum-cancel when run together.)

[Clapton is God]

That makes a lotta sense. I noticed the hum-canceling when both pickups were on full too. I wonder what the hell that guy from Fender was talking about....

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by billiam5billion

So how will the sound be affected with two neck pups?

It wont, because with Fender pickups they wind the neck and bridge the same. One is just longer.

Plus the MiM pickups are probably not made like the real Fender pickups.

[GatorDogDoc]

Wow, great discussions!

I posed your questions to a Fender tech... different one this time. Here goes:

Common knowledge is the pickup change occurred in 2001. 2006 was another year of changes (upgrades), like rounder body edges, vintage tint necks, etc. --danomite64

The pickups don't cancel each other out, so there's 60 cycle hum no matter where your knobs are set. My friend's '98 Jazz had that problem --danomite64

the easy way to tell is to look at the polepieces; the newer correctly-sized pickups will have raised poles under the D and A strings. (while not as nice as USA pickups, these are still a big improvement, and will hum-cancel when run together.) --walterw

It wont, because with Fender pickups they wind the neck and bridge the same. One is just longer. -- SGD Luthier

Yes, seems that the different pickup size change (only) occurred in 2001 (with the same body style). But MOST of those pickups were NOT noise cancelling, just different sizes, that is to say the pups were NOT reverse wound/reverse polarity (RWRP) in relation to each other and still have flat pole pieces. So turning the volumes on both all the way up did NOT cancel hum.

Since 2004/2005, the pickups were not only the appropriate (different) sizes, they have the raised pole pieces under the A and D strings, indicating they are the newer noise cancelling pickups, although not technically reverse wound/reverse polarity (RWRP). Turn both volumes all the way up and they cancel noise AND cause a midrange "scoop" due to frequency cancellation of the mids (called phase cancellation in physics), not due to true electronic hum cancellation--think of it as 2 waves of water coming together, one peaked and one troughed, that cancel each other out. This is due to the distance between the pickups, and not due to RWRP. Technically, he said you can also get this by setting both volumes at identical settings anywhere in the range, but that is almost impossible to do, so just crank 'em up and control the volume with your amp.

You CAN find Fender Mexican / MIM jazz basses from as far back as 2001 that have the raised poles, but they are hit and miss. As with any assembly plant, different runs on different assembly lines used different stock as it was available. Although what I said above is the "official" Fender line, there were certainly times when the "stock" pickups were unavailable and the "improved" ones used, even as far back as 2001 when they made the initial change to different sizes but not noise cancelling. Then as shipments of the "stock" pickups were available, they'd change back for a bit to use up the old ones, then back again to the new ones. Fender "tech-dude" contends that if most MIM jazz basses from the 2001 era that have the raised poles on different sized pickups are probably after-market replacements (i.e. MIA pickups or Fender Custom 60s, etc.) installed by the owner and later resold.

So, in a nutshell, from 2001-2004, you could have a MIM bass with
a) 2 pickups that are the same size with flat poles -- i.e. 2 "neck pickups" in the neck and bridge position with minimal, if any, noise cancellation
b) 2 pickups of different size with flat poles -- i.e. standard sized pickups, but not true noise cancelling at full volume (similar to (a))
c) 2 pickups of different size with raised poles -- i.e. standard sized pickups that ARE noise cancelling (with mid-range scoop desired by many jazz players) when both volumes turned all the way up.

As you move away from 2001 towards 2004/2005, you move from (a) to (b) to (c). Mostly (a) to (b) occurred during the 2001 model year as the body routs were made almost immediately. Then by 2004/2005, everyone was made with (c).

Thats some nice info but am i missing something?
Why didnt you just measure YOUR pups to find out if they are different sizes? How is there a danger the ones you have ordered wont fit if you have ordered the right set, based on what you have already? -- dave bass5

Well, I did. I just wasn't sure that the difference I got was significant enough to mean that my bridge pickup was a true bridge pickup!

I do have the bridges with raised pole pieces and do get great noise cancelling (mine's a 2007), but am looking for a slightly different sound with greater output. That's why I'm moving to the DiMarzio DP149s and started me on this crazy journey!

Hope this helps!

By the way, I can not guarantee that if you call Fender you might get some other variation of the story... seems there is no official "company line" about what goes on in the Mexican plant! Most of it is passed up the chain by word of mouth, and you know how things can get distorted or misquoted!

[Clapton is God]

GREAT post above.

FWIW, I ordered my MIM j-bass brand new in 2001. I read about all the upgrades, and I immediately ordered one from MF that spring. Mine have the raised A and D string pole piece, and as I said, hum cancel at full volume.

[billiam5billion]

So now I'm kinda screwed on simple replacement unless I do some routing, guess it's as good a time as any to learn...

[GatorDogDoc]

billiam5billion: What year MIM jazz do you have? Maybe you actually already have 2 different sizes, but not the pups with raised pole pieces? Then it's just an easy swap.

If not, then many others here have posted about how easy it is to dremmel out enough to make the bridge fit.... but I understand how you feel. I am much more comfortable just swapping out the electronics and soldering than doing body work.

From what I've read, many a qualified luthier is out there that can do this for not too much money... SGD Luthier who posts here regularly makes his own pickups (and I'm guessing he's had to do that modification on MIMs) may be able to weigh in on the difficulty factor.

The other option is to order a set of pickups individually. I know you can order the DiMarzio Ultra Jazz - neck pickup (DP147) -- the neck half of the DP149 set -- individually. Order 2 from them directly but contact DiMarzio to have the second one made RWRP for true humbuckers! That's what I was about to order when I realized that I can just use the stock set of DP149s which already come RWRP to each other.

Another option, if you like DiMarzio is the DP123. They only come in 1 size (per their Customer Service) and fit those basses that have 2 neck-sized pups. They have the more traditional sound as compared to the DP149s.

[bassybill]

I have an MIM Jazz with an MZ2 serial number (bought in early '04 "new" here in the UK) and it has the two different size pickups, bridge longer than neck.

[GatorDogDoc]

bassybill:

Are the pole pieces on yours raised up/at different heights?

That would indicate they are the noise cancelling type.

Maybe an informal poll on how many MIM Jazz basses from 2001 (MZ1xxxxxx) to 2004 (MZ4xxxxxx) have different pickup sizes with raised pole pieces?

That might give more insight into what is actually out there, as opposed to what Fender says is possible!

I have created a NEW THREAD within this forum with a poll to collect some data regarding MIM year and original pickup size.

[bassybill]

Originally Posted by GatorDogDoc

bassybill:

Are the pole pieces on yours raised up/at different heights?

That would indicate they are the noise cancelling type.

Maybe an informal poll on how many MIM Jazz basses from 2001 (MZ1xxxxxx) to 2004 (MZ4xxxxxx) have different pickup sizes with raised pole pieces?

That might give more insight into what is actually out there, as opposed to what Fender says is possible!

I have created a poll that will run for the next 30 days to collect some data and attached it to this thread....

VOTE TODAY FOR YOUR FENDER MIM J-BASS PICKUPS!

Not sure as I have replacement pickups in it (EMGs). I'll dig out the stock pickups later and have a look to report back.

EDIT My original pickups are different sizes and have raised pole pieces under the A and D strings. Just voted in this poll and the other one accordingly. Of course, if people want to know what to buy, all they have to do is measure their pickups. But I can understand the interest from one point of view.

[walterw]

Originally Posted by GatorDogDoc

Since 2004/2005, the pickups were not only the appropriate (different) sizes, they have the raised pole pieces under the A and D strings, indicating they are the newer noise cancelling pickups, although not technically reverse wound/reverse polarity (RWRP). Turn both volumes all the way up and they cancel noise AND cause a midrange "scoop" due to frequency cancellation of the mids (called phase cancellation in physics), not due to true electronic hum cancellation--think of it as 2 waves of water coming together, one peaked and one troughed, that cancel each other out. This is due to the distance between the pickups, and not due to RWRP. Technically, he said you can also get this by setting both volumes at identical settings anywhere in the range, but that is almost impossible to do, so just crank 'em up and control the volume with your amp.

sorry, but that physics is wildly incorrect.

the pickups hum-cancel because they are RWRP from each other (like any proper set of single-coil jazz pickups), and for no other reason.

the mid-scoop happens because of the locations and nature of the pickups. it would sound the same whether they were canceling hum together or not.

they hum-cancel when both are turned down (but still at the same level as each other) because the hum each coil generates is still equal in volume to the reverse-polarity hum the other one creates.

who says it's "impossible" to get perfect cancellation with them both turned down? turn one down, then turn the other one down until the hum goes away. trivially easy.

[GatorDogDoc]

sorry, but that physics is wildly incorrect. the pickups hum-cancel because they are RWRP from each other (like any proper set of single-coil jazz pickups), and for no other reason. --walterw

Thanks for the comments walterw... I know that RWRP (i.e. humbucker) pickups cancel hum for this reason, but it was explained to me that jazz pickups are not true RWRP. They are actually 2 separate single coils that are reversed magnetically by electrical flow in the opposite direction of an identically wound coil. True humbuckers are double coils (2 single coils wired together) with one RWRP to the other at each pickup location (2 at the neck, 2 at the bridge). The effect is basically the same, but to a slightly lesser degree, and technically not true humbuckers.

This seems to be supported by items such as this Tech Tip from Musician's Friend:

What Is A Humbucker?

There are two main types of electric guitar pickups: single coils and humbuckers. Single coils were the first pickups invented. They consist of a single bobbin (spool) containing one or more magnets. Humbuckers, developed by Seth Lover while working for Gibson in 1955, are two single coils that are wired together. By hooking a pair of single-coil pickups together, you get less noise than a typical single coil, and you get fatter, richer tone. You also get much more output than single-coil pickups, so they overdrive amps much differently. Humbuckers usually have two bobbins side-by-side, but there are also "stacked" humbuckers that are actually two single coils stacked on top of each other. Stacked humbuckers require no new holes or modifications to a standard single-coil guitar, and they deliver the same fat tone as side-by-side humbuckers.

There is also a good explanation of humbuckers vs. single-coil hum cancellation in a Wikipedia topic entitled "Humbucker". It also explains how the Fender Jazz bass (single coil) differs from the Precision bass (split single coil wired in humbucking fashion).

Maybe splitting hairs on definitions as opposed to functionality?

they hum-cancel when both are turned down (but still at the same level as each other) because the hum each coil generates is still equal in volume to the reverse-polarity hum the other one creates. --walterw

That's the way I understand it, too. Hum cancellation of any kind occurs at any equal volume settings of the two single coil jazz pickups with electrically induced reverse polarities, just as you explained. Never thought about setting one volume pot, then fine tuning the other one until the hum cancels, thus indicating perfect synchronization of the hum volumes (at opposite polarities).

May or may not be practical since if it is more important to have cancelled hum than an unequal blend of sounds (warmer at the neck, brighter at the bridge) the volumes of each must be equal. The easiest way to do that may be to just turn both of them all the way up to get the cancellation and control the overall volume through your amp or sound board rather than through the guitar knobs.

Any time you have the volumes of the pickups on a jazz at different levels, you won't be totally cancelling the hum, but you get to custom blend the sounds of the pickups. It's a trade-off.

With true humbuckers, the paired coils cancelling the hum are located at each pickup position (2 at the neck, 2 at the bridge), so you can turn the volumes of each set to different levels to blend the neck/bridge sounds while still getting total hum cancellation at each set of pickups independent of the relative volumes of one to the other. You just can't do that with a jazz... using the volume to blend neck + bridge unequally affects hum cancellation.

the mid-scoop happens because of the locations and nature of the pickups. it would sound the same whether they were canceling hum together or not. --walterw

I agree that it is the location of the pickups that produces a phase shift of the sound wave causing the scoop (cancellation) of the mid range.

But you can still have 2 sound waves opposite to each other (1 peak vs. 1 trough) perfectly lined up on top of one another (perfectly phase shifted), but if the height (amplitude) of each isn't equal to each other (i.e. the volumes aren't set equally), they won't totally cancel each other out, and you won't get the full effect of a mid range scoop. Yes?

You will still get some variation of an incomplete mid range scoop when set at different volumes, as long as one pickup isn't turned all the way down... and this is what is so great about the 2 volume knobs... you get to play around with both the warmness/brightness and level of scoop by varying the volumes to one another... and on top of that, you can vary the tone knob, too!

We can have discussions all day long as to when Fender went to raised poles from flat poles, and if they are RWRP or not, and what that really means in regards to sound/hum/tone. Unfortunatley, Fender isn't saying much on that topic as none of their technical specs actually spell it out!

All of this technical stuff is great fodder for discussions, but the reason for my original post was to point out that the commonly posted comments regarding identical pickup size does not hold true for all Fender MIM Jazz basses.

The question remains as to when the change occurred to the 2 different sized pickups with either flat or raised pole pieces .... seems to have been around 2001.

And after about 2004, they all should have 2 different sized pickups with raised pole pieces as original equipment.

This is only an issue for those of us that want to replace what we have and need to know what to buy--2 identically sized pickups or the usual 2 differently sized pickups-- or if we need to modify our basses with some body work.

....I've created and posted a poll on what sized pickups Fender MIM J-bass owners have to try and gather more data specific to that question.... please look for that thread under this forum and choose your Fender MIM pickups!