Pickups for my road worn jazz

[gjuro]

I've been thinking about replacing the stock pickups in my J. The stock pickups aren't that bad soundwise (my bass in action here) but the thing that bothers me is difference in string volume. The neck radius is 7.25 and when I set up my bass correctly E and G strings are closer to the pickups (maybe about 1mm or less) but the difference in volme is huge. The only way to compensate this is to either raise G and E strings or get pickups with raised pole pieces on D and A strings. Since I don't want to sacrifice playability I'll go with new pickups to solve the problem and to get different (better) sound ofc.
The only pickups with raised pole pieces I know of are:
1. Lindy Fralin "4 String J 'RaisedPoles' Set" - I can get them from bestbassgear.com
2. Dimarzio model J - it has adjustable pole pieces but the sound is definitely something that you don't want for a 60's style vibe
3. Lollar pickups - you can see the details here Opinions needed: Lollar Jazz Bass Style Pickup Set They say poles on pickups follow 9.5 radius so I'm not sure it will eliminate volume difference on my 7.25 fingerboard.
4. Nordstrands - I heard you can order custom set with raised poles but it will probably cost more than I'm willing to spend.

So I'm not quite sure what to choose. Do you guys know if any other manufacturers offer that kind of pickups? If not, what would you choose from the ones I listed?

I would have gone with fralins but I heard they are too harsh in top end and a bit shy on bottom end :/ Lollars sound really nice from what I heard from sound samples and descriptions on the forum but I'm not sure if the poles are raised enough (9.5 radius)

[kasbrey]

Try talking to Andy at Wizard pickups.

http://www.wizardpickups.co.uk/shop.asp?category=Bass

[joeyl]

not sure how the pickups are made in for the roadworn, but in recent MIA pickups the polepieces are not in contact with the coils, so you can tap them out to different heights without damage. So maybe somebody here knows how they are made?

[gjuro]

Originally Posted by kasbrey

Try talking to Andy at Wizard pickups.

http://www.wizardpickups.co.uk/shop.asp?category=Bass

ill check that out

Originally Posted by joeyl

not sure how the pickups are made in for the roadworn, but in recent MIA pickups the polepieces are not in contact with the coils, so you can tap them out to different heights without damage. So maybe somebody here knows how they are made?

If someone can confirm this I could try it but I'm not feeling like opening a bass to experiment.



Any other suggestions?

[Tusec]

It's doubtful that 1mm makes an audible difference, much less a huge difference.

What you really need is an inexpensive ritual to convince your mind that you have solved the "problem".

Here's what you should do. It is guaranteed to work. All the tone gurus say it works and it is backed up with solid science:

Tap on the outer polepieces with a pencil eraser three times each, then toss a pinch of salt over your left shoulder. This will slightly soften the magnetic field of the outer polepieces and bring the string volumes into balance.

Voila!

[gjuro]

Originally Posted by Tusec

It's doubtful that 1mm makes an audible difference, much less a huge difference.

1mm makes a big difference. Many expensive jazzes use raised pole pickups, like sadowsky for example (even tho the radius is 12" on their basses)
If the height between the pickup and the g string is 2 mm, then the height between the middle strings and the pup is 3mm. Its 50% difference, so don't talk about something you have no idea of.

Thanks for not being helpful at all

[joeyl]

woa woa take it easy guys, it just pickups

[Tusec]

Originally Posted by gjuro

If the height between the pickup and the g string is 2 mm, then the height between the middle strings and the pup is 3mm. Its 50% difference, so don't talk about something you have no idea of.

1) I doubt you've only got 2mm between the string and the pickup. You've probably got more like 5mm, so we're talking about a 20% difference, not 50%.

2) Your percentage analysis might work if volume fell off in a simple linear way with distance - but I don't think that's the case, because:

• The arching field lines between the magnets create a region of concentrated field strength within which the string height can vary without changing the output much.
  
  
• Volume varies logarithmically, not linearly, with output voltage.

So if for the sake of argument we say that 1mm of change in height gives a 50% change in output voltage, that's only a 3.6dB change in volume, which is hardly huge. If we say the change in voltage is 20% (as in the case where string height is 5mm, not 2mm), the change in volume is only 1.6 dB, which is barely noticeable. And I doubt the percentage change of the signal voltage is actually as big as either 50 or 20 percent.

I also know from tinkering around with pickup height that 1mm doesn't make an appreciable difference, at least not to my ears, and I think I've got reasonably good ears.

So both logic and experience tell me that the "huge" volume difference you're hearing is probably your imagination. I think what happened is that your brain convinced your ears that because the pickup is 1mm closer, it should be 50% louder, which isn't true.

[Bassdirty]

Originally Posted by Tusec

1) I doubt you've only got 2mm between the string and the pickup. You've probably got more like 5mm, so we're talking about a 20% difference, not 50%.

2) Your percentage analysis might work if volume fell off in a simple linear way with distance - but I don't think that's the case, because:

• The arching field lines between the magnets create a region of concentrated field strength within which the string height can vary without changing the output much.
  
  
• Volume varies logarithmically, not linearly, with output voltage.

So if for the sake of argument we say that 1mm of change in height gives a 50% change in output voltage, that's only a 3.6dB change in volume, which is hardly huge. If we say the change in voltage is 20% (as in the case where string height is 5mm, not 2mm), the change in volume is only 1.6 dB, which is barely noticeable. And I doubt the percentage change of the signal voltage is actually as big as either 50 or 20 percent.

I also know from tinkering around with pickup height that 1mm doesn't make an appreciable difference, at least not to my ears, and I think I've got reasonably good ears.

So both logic and experience tell me that the "huge" volume difference you're hearing is probably your imagination. I think what happened is that your brain convinced your ears that because the pickup is 1mm closer, it should be 50% louder, which isn't true.

BU-ZINGA!




Nice though.

[keyboardguy]

I just put Dimarizio Area J's in a project bass and they sound fantastic.

The two inner pole-pieces (A and D string) are raised, so that would solve your problem

http://www.dimarzio.com/site/#/pickups/

Do a search in TalkBass for more info on these fairly new (last year or 2) pups.

Mike

[spaz21387]

Did you ever consiter a compressor to make string volume all the same? thats what I use.

[gjuro]

Originally Posted by spaz21387

Did you ever consiter a compressor to make string volume all the same? thats what I use.

yes, I used quite heavy compression to even it out but I don't like that. It kills the dynamics. I don't have a comp right now so it would cost me probably the same as changing pups

@Tusec I'm not here to argue. I know what I hear, and I didn't care about string to pickup distance before I noticed the difference in volume, which was like when I plugged it in for the first time. I know Ed Friedland said he raised his g and e to even it out and I don't think he's imagining things. If flat pickups with 7.25 board work for you, I'm glad, you have many more pickup options then

[gjuro]

Originally Posted by keyboardguy

I just put Dimarizio Area J's in a project bass and they sound fantastic.

The two inner pole-pieces (A and D string) are raised, so that would solve your problem

http://www.dimarzio.com/site/#/pickups/

Do a search in TalkBass for more info on these fairly new (last year or 2) pups.

Mike

Thanks. The problem is, dimarzio doesn't ship their products outside US, so I would have to buy it here. (croatia) The dealer here probably doesn't have them in stock and it costs more here than in US+shipping+tax

[Tusec]

Originally Posted by gjuro

@Tusec I'm not here to argue. I know what I hear, and I didn't care about string to pickup distance before I noticed the difference in volume, which was like when I plugged it in for the first time. I know Ed Friedland said he raised his g and e to even it out and I don't think he's imagining things. If flat pickups with 7.25 board work for you, I'm glad, you have many more pickup options then

Ed Friedland is a knowledgeable guy with good ears, but he's imagining things too. We're all prone to letting our minds talk our ears into things that just aren't true.

What's interesting is that people only complain about string balance issues with 7.25" boards. The 9.5" boards never get complaints even though they're nearly as arched as 7.25". If the problem were real, people would complain about both, but they don't.

The difference is that whereas people see 9.5 as the "normal" radius, 7.25 is seen as kind of exotic, and prone to unique problems. It's about perceptions.

Has Ed Friedland ever said anything about string balance problems on his 9.5" basses? I'll bet not. Have you ever had problems with your 9.5" basses? I'll bet not. But why not? The middle and outer strings are more than 1mm different in height, so there should be a huge difference, right?

[gjuro]

Originally Posted by Tusec

What's interesting is that people only complain about string balance issues with 7.25" boards. The 9.5" boards never get complaints even though they're nearly as arched as 7.25". If the problem were real, people would complain about both, but they don't.

9.5 is quite flat compared to 7.25 and there probably is a small difference which isn't a problem. I have ears and I can heard a difference in string volume. I could even make you soundclips but I don't think I will waste that much of my time for proving someone wrong on the internet.
So please, if you don't have any suggestions don't post on my thread anymore.

[Spino]

Tap on the outer polepieces with a pencil eraser three times each, then toss a pinch of salt over your left shoulder. This will slightly soften the magnetic field of the outer polepieces and bring the string volumes into balance.

Voila!

Ha Ha !!! Love this .

[Tusec]

Originally Posted by gjuro

9.5 is quite flat compared to 7.25 and there probably is a small difference which isn't a problem. I have ears and I can heard a difference in string volume.

No, the difference between 9.5" and 7.25" is actually quite small. At the twentieth fret their respective fingerboard arches are 2.1 and 2.8 mm. That's a difference of less than a millimeter. Or to put it in percentage terms: a 9.5" board has 78% of the arch of a 7.25" board.

So according to your reasoning a 9.5" board should have 78% of the string volume problem that a 7.25" board has. But for some reason you perceive one as having a "very small" volume difference while the other's is "huge".

Why do you think that is? It's because you're listening to your mind's bogus analysis rather than to your ears.

The fact is that neither 7.25" or 9.5" radiuses have a problem with flat polepiece pickups. That's why gazillions of excellent recordings and live performances have been made with them over the last half century or so.

[gjuro]

ok, I think I'm gonna go with fralins or nordstrands, but still a few days before I order. Any suggestions are welcome

@tusec I haven't owned any bass with 9.5 radius so I don't know. My other bass is btb six string with nearly flat fingerboard.

[edfriedland]

I'm not sure what I'm imagining or not.... but I don't recall ever changing the string height on my RW Jazz to get less out of the E &G string. In fact one of the things I love about my RW is the G is louder and punchier than most other J's I've owned. This no doubt has something to do with pickup/string proximity, but I think there are other factors at work too.

That said, I do often use pickup and string height as a means to balance out an instrument. I do this on basses with all different radiuses. And yes, seemingly small changes definitely affect the volume. My preference is to manage this with pickup height as I like the radius of the strings to match the board. Occasionally I will adjust an individual string.

It's easy enough to "prove" this. Simply adjust your string height while plugged in, you can hear it change volume depending on the height.