Pickups:, old vs.new

[lowendblues]

A quick question for the masses.

It seems like when everyone goes out and buys a "Squier" or lets say, an "SX" bass,,,the first thing everyone suggest's is that they switch out the pickups.

My question is this, exactly how do today's Squier or SX pickups compare with the original pickups they put into the early P basses and Jazz basses?

Keep in mind this is not a vintage or value question,,,just if you could grab some of today's budget pickups, get into a time machine, go back and compare them to the pickups being used at Fender back in the 50's and 60's, how would they compare?

[line6man]

This is an invalid question, because you are comparing low quality Squier/SX pickups to mid-quality stock Fender pickups.

If you want to get into age differences, you need to be comparing the same quality components.

[stflbn]

Many people change out pickups only to later go back to the originals.

Many people buy higher end Fender and other instruments and also swap out pickups.

Many people buy used instruments with different pickups than stock and search out stock pickups to go in those instruments.


Unfortunately the perception is that lower end instruments have to have pickups that sound bad... which often is not the case if the player gives the pickups a chance.

(Yes, other pickups may be better at specific things or for specific needs, but usually stock pickups are 'good enough')

IMHO.

[lowendblues]

Line6man,,,my point is the choices we have today. There wasnt any options back then.

How would low-end pickups made with "todays" technology, stack up with pickups made back with '50's and '60's tech.?

[4Mal]

In general not very well. A good 60's Fender is quite detailed. Low end basses tend to use hot cheap pickups from china. IME - some of them - the ones I've heard anyway get pretty blurry in the low end. It really isn't much different from comparing a well made vintage style pickup from today against an SX or MIM Fender, etc ...

The technology you allude to hasn't for the most part been appiled to making pickups better. It has been applied to making them cheaper ... and the beancounters want cheaper yet so they design to a real low price point.

[waynobass]

Originally Posted by lowendblues

How would low-end pickups made with "todays" technology, stack up with pickups made back with '50's and '60's tech.?

Hand-wound in California from high-quality materials, or made by machines (in a factory in China that probably also makes waffle irons) from the cheapest materials available. Which do you think is better?

[metalmariachi]

There was plenty of pickup swapping in the late ‘60s-‘70s to get better sound than the old originals.
Usually hotter and more aggressive.
Schecter, DiMarzio and Duncan came out of that era.

MM

[ProfGumby]

I think most are missing the Original point of the question.

Back in the 60's pickups were not made of many different materials, like they are today. And for the most part an entry level instrument is every bit as good and sounds as good as many mid to high end instruments back in the day!

A 60's Fender pickup with cloth wire and ceramic magnets was much hotter than many of today's Fender pickups. And many were highly microphonic. Remember yelling into a pickup and hearing your voice come through the amp? The pickups in my SX basses are very similar to these, but not as microphonic.

Yes the stock pups in many low cost basses are made from less expensive materials than the high end pups of today. But remeber that technology was top end stuff back in the day!

However, I'd be willing to bet that a 60's jazz bass played through an amp, would sound very similar to say, an SX played through the same amp. Remeber all 60's basses are not or were not gems. There were some real stinkers in the mix. Not as bad as the 80's, but be honest.

And do I have to reference the blind tests here where the lowly SX beat out a real, honest to God, American made Fender jazz?

And lets not sell the Chinese short. There are many many fine craftsmen that can blow an American worker out of the water. Just because something is not hand wound by an American does not automatically make it crap.

Seriously, there are differences between pickups. But the big question should be, does this set of pickups give me the sound I want? Not where was it made.

And this thought -
Hand-wound in California from high-quality materials, or made by machines (in a factory in China that probably also makes waffle irons) from the cheapest materials available. Which do you think is better?

Now come on! Yes! An American touched this, we can all mess our shorts now! Have you seen some of the state of the art facilities in China? They rival anything we have here. And they are dedicated to manufacturing musical instruments and nothing else. BTW, you better check the long list of parts in many basses and see where the materials and parts actually come form.

[lowendblues]

Originally Posted by ProfGumby

I think most are missing the Original point of the question.

Back in the 60's pickups were not made of many different materials, like they are today. And for the most part an entry level instrument is every bit as good and sounds as good as many mid to high end instruments back in the day!

A 60's Fender pickup with cloth wire and ceramic magnets was much hotter than many of today's Fender pickups. And many were highly microphonic. Remember yelling into a pickup and hearing your voice come through the amp? The pickups in my SX basses are very similar to these, but not as microphonic.

Yes the stock pups in many low cost basses are made from less expensive materials than the high end pups of today. But remeber that technology was top end stuff back in the day!

However, I'd be willing to bet that a 60's jazz bass played through an amp, would sound very similar to say, an SX played through the same amp. Remeber all 60's basses are not or were not gems. There were some real stinkers in the mix. Not as bad as the 80's, but be honest.

And do I have to reference the blind tests here where the lowly SX beat out a real, honest to God, American made Fender jazz?

And lets not sell the Chinese short. There are many many fine craftsmen that can blow an American worker out of the water. Just because something is not hand wound by an American does not automatically make it crap.

Seriously, there are differences between pickups. But the big question should be, does this set of pickups give me the sound I want? Not where was it made.

And this thought -
Hand-wound in California from high-quality materials, or made by machines (in a factory in China that probably also makes waffle irons) from the cheapest materials available. Which do you think is better?

Now come on! Yes! An American touched this, we can all mess our shorts now! Have you seen some of the state of the art facilities in China? They rival anything we have here. And they are dedicated to manufacturing musical instruments and nothing else. BTW, you better check the long list of parts in many basses and see where the materials and parts actually come form.

Thank you,,,,, ProfGumby,,, you know what I'm getting at..I remember the "microphonic" effect all to well.

[Bocete]

Originally Posted by ProfGumby

...

+1, great post. And it's good that this is the pickups sub-forum: you'll not get as nearly as flamed here.

[ProfGumby]

Originally Posted by Bocete

+1, great post. And it's good that this is the pickups sub-forum: you'll not get as nearly as flamed here.

Ah I'm not worried about getting flamed. But I do think the topic has merit and is of great interest to me.

[stingray69]

Originally Posted by Bocete

+1, great post. And it's good that this is the pickups sub-forum: you'll not get as nearly as flamed here.

+2 ProfGumby - great post! I had something similar in mind, but you stated it much better than I could. Thanks!

[Gary Lynch]

There is certainly a difference between hand crafted pickups with A+ materials and scatter wired bobbins etc., and production pickups. It would not matter where they are made but how they are made. Check the soldiering on a 1965 Fender Champ amp compared to a quality boutique point to point amp of today. Fender massed produced these amps and were sloppy because the employees had to produce many (often too many) per day. I read a post that I should have saved written by one of the employees who talks about how many he could solider a day and what it was like.

[Jim C]

Well said Professor and Gary

[Basstovsky]

I have to say I have been very surprised/impressed with stock pickups in cheaper basses these days. I bought my SX jazz fully intending to swap the pickups, only to find they sounded almost identical to jazzes ive heard on many rock recordings from classic rock to modern day. (for the record I later swapped the pups when i realized i like humbuckers over single coils, I love Dimarzio model J's and P's) Also just got a lower-end-model Ibanez with P-J pickups that really have some great punch to them. I've always kept those stock pups that I swapped out, and tend to add them into other basses, took one of the SX J's and made one of my P's into a P-J.

Yeah they're no EMG/Bartolini/Nordstrands/etc. but for a standard passive pickup in my experience import/copy stock pups (given i've had no experience with some of teh SUPER cheapo noname basses out there on ebay) are about the same as a MIM fender.

Also I played an american P-bass at GC last month, and didnt find the sound to be all that different than other cheaper (read: sub-$500!) I've owned. I will say the cosmetics and neck fit were better but not something I care enough about to pay more.

[walterw]

the real difference is that most of today's cheap pickups are made with steel slugs as polepieces and a ceramic magnet glued to the bottom. this is nothing like "real" fender pickups, which have individual alnico rod magnets.

[ProfGumby]

Originally Posted by walterw

the real difference is that most of today's cheap pickups are made with steel slugs as polepieces and a ceramic magnet glued to the bottom. this is nothing like "real" fender pickups, which have individual alnico rod magnets.

You bring up a great point! But wouldn't saying this be closer to the point here, "This is nothing like modern Fender pickups"...In 1960 and 1970 the "real" Fender pickups were steel slugs and ceramic magnets, were they not? These today are called "vintage" and guys pay hundreds for the Original Fender stuff. The cheap pickups really do a bang up job of grabbing the vintage vibe, for a whole lot less cash.


My whole point was never who was better than or higher quality, but that the cheap stuff (at least in my SX basses) did a very commendable job of dishing out the sound I wanted and grew up listening to.

I do really appreciate the quality and technology going into instrument electronics these days, and I have a set of DiMarzio J pups that are, well, wow says it. However in my experience, I was going to mod my Geddy Clone and put all Fender electronics in the bass. I can't. It simply sounds too good to want to rip out the pups!

Peace

[walterw]

Originally Posted by ProfGumby

You bring up a great point! But wouldn't saying this be closer to the point here, "This is nothing like modern Fender pickups"...In 1960 and 1970 the "real" Fender pickups were steel slugs and ceramic magnets, were they not?

um, no they were not. They had alnico rod magnets, just like the good ones do now. ceramic is much cheaper to manufacture, which is why you see it on just about all budget import pickups.

(there are serious makers using ceramic in their designs, but that's a different thing entirely. )

[ProfGumby]

Originally Posted by walterw

um, no they were not. They had alnico rod magnets, just like the good ones do now. ceramic is much cheaper to manufacture, which is why you see it on just about all budget import pickups.

(there are serious makers using ceramic in their designs, but that's a different thing entirely. )

I stand corrected.

[9mmMike]

Good thread!