Piezo bridges combined with 2 mags and EQ--what brand and what layout?

[DaveAceofBass]

So I'm having a custom Kinal DK-5 built. Kent Armstrong is going to custom wind two mag pickups, and it will have the John East preamp, probably the 5-knob U-Retro to allow the blend to function in passive mode as well. I wish there was a way for there to be less pots, but I don't think it will work.

I have to decide on the piezos. I'm leaning toward the Hipshot A-style bride with the Graph Tech piezos, although I have the RMCs in my other bass so I'm tempted to go that route instead. Does anyone here know how the two compare?

In addition, adding the piezos to the U-Retro circuit seems to be troublesome. I'm not sure whether to figure out a way to add them in prior to the EQ or after. If it were after, then I'd want a tone control for the piezos. This might be ideal but I'm not sure about running the EQ'd mags through a buffer circuit. I've been emailing John East, but he's been a little slow in his responses--I guess he's just busy. If anyone has any suggestions please let me know ASAP.

[jibreel]

I am in the process of replacing the electronics on my Basslines Acoustic Worp 6 string bass. The Le Fay mag pickup stays, but the Schertler Bluestick piezo and the Noll preamp are going to get sold.

I have installed RMC piezo saddles in the bridge. The piezos go into a RMC Hybrid Pro B circuit board/pre. I am having David at Audere put together a four band EQ pre with his Z-mode switch.

Right now he has the RMC board and is making sure all the connections between the two systems will work.

What I will end up with is a stacked volume knob. One volume for the magnetic pickup and one volume for the piezo. A stacked low/high midrange control and a stacked bass and treble control. The RMC board has a magnetic volume trim pot also.

I hope to get it sometime next week. I will post a review at some point, but let me know if you want any information sooner.

good luck

[cosmicevan]

wow jibreel, i can't believe you are unhappy with the noll. i was going to suggest the noll. but i guess the lefays have a different sound that doesn't complement the noll as much? i wonder if lefay makes something for this? i've always loved that tone switch they use with their pickups.

also, got any pix of your worp? when did you get it? from where? i've wanted one for ages!

[jibreel]

I do not think it was as much the noll as the Bluestick. But the Noll was lacking some and even the Worp builder says that the newer Nolls are better.

Since I am installing the RMC, I just wanted to go a whole new route.

I bought this Worp used. I was lucky to find it in Portland OR which is about three hours away from where I live.

I love it. Very unique. I just hope my electronics mod gives me what I want.

[DaveAceofBass]

Originally Posted by jibreel

I am in the process of replacing the electronics on my Basslines Acoustic Worp 6 string bass. The Le Fay mag pickup stays, but the Schertler Bluestick piezo and the Noll preamp are going to get sold.

I have installed RMC piezo saddles in the bridge. The piezos go into a RMC Hybrid Pro B circuit board/pre. I am having David at Audere put together a four band EQ pre with his Z-mode switch.

Right now he has the RMC board and is making sure all the connections between the two systems will work.

What I will end up with is a stacked volume knob. One volume for the magnetic pickup and one volume for the piezo. A stacked low/high midrange control and a stacked bass and treble control. The RMC board has a magnetic volume trim pot also.

I hope to get it sometime next week. I will post a review at some point, but let me know if you want any information sooner.

good luck

I have the RMCs and the Hybrid B preamp in my Linc Luthier bass, which unfortunately is in the shop with a broken truss rod. The RMCs are truly great, but I've got them combined with the Villex pickups (which are awesome too). This doesn't open up much possibilities for EQ in that bass, but I am tempted to try it with the East preamp. I'm curious about the Audere, which certainly would be cheaper, but since I've never heard one I'll stick to what I know sounds great. The Kent Armstrong pickups are very natural sounding...a good match for an active EQ. I feel like I'd rob the Villex pickups of their passive greatness in an active bass. It's a tough call to go away from that setup, but I hope that my Linc is eventually repaired cause I really miss it. I want something different from this Kinal, but there are some features of the Linc that I love that I'm having Kinal build into this bass. I've also dealt with Noll, but I've not tried their preamps. Klaus built me a custom pot on the Linc that acts as the tone control for the RMC Hybrid B preamp and as Villex's proprietary mid control. I have the East preamp in my Modulus, and it sounds great, and I've used his outboard preamp with my passive Lincs. So, that's why I'm going that route. Unfortunately I think his circuits are a bit bulky and hard to modify by adding in a piezo. It would be nice to find a way to have him make sure the circuit works like you have done with Audere. With me in North Carolina, John East in England, Kent Armstrong in Vermont, and Mike Kinal in Canada I just don't see that happening.... So, I'm still not sure whether I should try the Graph Tech or go back to RMC (which is surely more expensive)....

[elros]

My Surine has the ABM piezo pickups, with a Bartolini piezo buffer. I think it sounds great! There are some sound clips at the bottom of this page but as I haven't tried the RMC stuff I can't offer an opinion on how it would compare. (Note: I'm not entirely sure these are ABM piezos, the product features page only says "piezo"...)
The piezo pickups on my bass have an insanely wide frequency response though, which I really like. Very deep bass, and a high reaching and silky sounding treble.

[cosmicevan]

Hey jibreel, if you ever get sick of that worp, PM me. I used to work at a shop that had those and I've always wanted one.

As for the Noll, I played tons of basses with that pre (in that same shop) and was always pretty impressed with the Noll since to my ears, it doesn't have a flavor like many other pre-amps. That's why I went that route on my Acacia (should be complete within a month's time). I got the fully parametric 3-band Noll that will be wired to 2 lane poor humbuckers. Can't wait to hear it!

[jibreel]

I am sure the Noll is probably pretty good. From what I have heard, the parametric one is the way to go. I just did not want to mess with trying to connect the new RMC system to the old Noll system.

[DaveAceofBass]

Originally Posted by elros

My Surine has the ABM piezo pickups, with a Bartolini piezo buffer. I think it sounds great! There are some sound clips at the bottom of this page but as I haven't tried the RMC stuff I can't offer an opinion on how it would compare. (Note: I'm not entirely sure these are ABM piezos, the product features page only says "piezo"...)
The piezo pickups on my bass have an insanely wide frequency response though, which I really like. Very deep bass, and a high reaching and silky sounding treble.

I had the individual ABM bridges with piezos in my first Linc. They failed from the time I got it and were very flimsy. Even the replacements went bad quickly. I'll never use the ABM again--which by the way I think is a Shadow piezo. It's RMC or Graph Tech, that's the way to go.

[fokof]

I had really good results with the graph tech bridge/piezo/preamp/hex combo. The integration with my old mag setup was easy.
So good to have that other "sound" option.

[Shoewreck]

Mag blend, mag passive tone, mag EQ (Bass/Treble boost), mag/piezo blend, piezo EQ (treble cut), piezo/mag blend, master volume.

USE BRIDGE COVER with GraphTech piezo saddles - they are easy to break and receive lots of hum.

[DaveAceofBass]

Originally Posted by Shoewreck

Mag blend, mag passive tone, mag EQ (Bass/Treble boost), mag/piezo blend, piezo EQ (treble cut), piezo/mag blend, master volume.

USE BRIDGE COVER with GraphTech piezo saddles - they are easy to break and receive lots of hum.

Do you specifically mean the Graph Tech, or are you referring to piezos in general?

[Shoewreck]

Originally Posted by DaveAceofBass

Do you specifically mean the Graph Tech, or are you referring to piezos in general?

I had the trouble with Graph Tech saddles - once my bass had fallen one of saddles broke. Graph Tech saddles don't have any shielding at all, and strings don't help much. There are many well-shielded piezo systems, but all piezos are brittle (electret film systems are not, but I haven't seen any on a bass guitar).

[DaveAceofBass]

Originally Posted by Shoewreck

I had the trouble with Graph Tech saddles - once my bass had fallen one of saddles broke. Graph Tech saddles don't have any shielding at all, and strings don't help much. There are many well-shielded piezo systems, but all piezos are brittle (electret film systems are not, but I haven't seen any on a bass guitar).

Thanks for the tip. The RMCs are not brittle at all. If you dropped your bass surely you could break the crystals. As for the electret film systems I use B-Band pickups in both of my uprights... I might inquire about that, that's a good idea. The RMCs are very sturdy, maybe we'll just go that route. Now if only John East gets back to me and figures out if we can integrate these into his preamp.... I have never tried the Audere, but it looks interesting. I hope East can help me come up with something.

[brandonwong]

Here's a email from John just a while back...

> And is it a better option to use a piezo buffer and then a U-retro... or the BTBM in conjunction to a mid-sweep(s)?
if i have two mag pickups and a RMC piezo.

You could do either.

Both ways would require ideally require a piezo buffer.

But the U-Retro can have one of its inputs with higher impedance which would work with piezo, and then you could have a passive blend between the mags feeding the other input. This would give you all options, mags only, piezo only, blend between mags, and blend between piezo and mags, plus master volume.

BTBM and mid could be wired that way too but would require a piezo buffer.

Come back to me if you have any more questions?

Cheers

John

[ugo]

Originally Posted by DaveAceofBass

As for the electret film systems I use B-Band pickups in both of my uprights... I might inquire about that, that's a good idea.

i've been thinking about trying to install a b-band under the bridge of one of my basses. (like perhaps my cirrus fretless.) but i havent seen any info on that as to how well it would work out. im pretty curious though.

if i remeber correctly, i once saw a kenneth lawrence chamberbass online that was listed as having a b-band in it, but i dont know how it was mounted.

[DaveAceofBass]

I'm not sure what brand of piezos I'll go with...RMCs or Graph Tech or maybe a B-Band system.

I think that the East pre is the way to go. I did a gig a few years back with Little Anthony and the Imperials, and I brought three basses--a Modulus Genesis 5-string with stock 18V Bartolini system (which I later traded for a Kinal MK5), a Linc Luthier 6-string with Lane Poors and a Bart TC5 boost-only preamp, and a Modulus VJ with Barts and the U-Retro Deluxe, 9V. The VJ is not my favorite bass, but the sound was the best tone of all. I've also played all the basses I just metioned at church and people always ask when I'm bringing back the Modulus VJ--they say they like the sound of that one the best. My main bass later became a Linc Luthier Impression 5-string with Villex soapbars and an RMC piezo sytem. That bass sounded great on its own without the preamp but even better with the addition of the East STMP-01 outboard preamp. That bass is now in the shop with a broken truss rod. Sometime over the summer I will most likely sell that bass, but the new custom Kinal DK-5 I will be getting will have the U-Retro. I considered Villex pickups again, but his system works best passively, so I'm going with custom Kent Armstrong soapbars this time. Here's hoping the piezos work out the way I'd like... Peace!

[John East]

Originally Posted by DaveAceofBass

I've been emailing John East, but he's been a little slow in his responses--I guess he's just busy. If anyone has any suggestions please let me know ASAP.

Dave, I've been back to you a couple of times on email now, in order to take up the info to try to achieve what you're after.

Your request to have a Retro EQ with flat setting, instead of the pre-shape, and EQ bypass, but with the active still in circuit, along with all the other blend and switching options, needed some detailed thought and scribblings of block diagrams etc. That all takes time and can't be rushed.

I've just sent you a further email on how we might cover your requirement, but there are some pot configs that I don't as yet have. See the detail in the email.

[DaveAceofBass]

Originally Posted by John East

Dave, I've been back to you a couple of times on email now, in order to take up the info to try to achieve what you're after.

Your request to have a Retro EQ with flat setting, instead of the pre-shape, and EQ bypass, but with the active still in circuit, along with all the other blend and switching options, needed some detailed thought and scribblings of block diagrams etc. That all takes time and can't be rushed.

I've just sent you a further email on how we might cover your requirement, but there are some pot configs that I don't as yet have. See the detail in the email.

I didn't mean for it to seem as though you weren't replying. Sorry if I came off that way, especially on the TB board here. I'm thinking that maybe we can just keep it simple--maybe my thoughts of the "ideal layout" are not the easiest to achieve. The main thing is we have a U-Retro with a blend that functions in active and passive, the ability to add in a piezo master volume(or blend)/tone stack, no pre-shape, a toggle for the mids, and a toggle for the EQ on/off without going into passive mode (still boosted--that is unless passive and active were always set to a unity gain, in which case this wouldn't be necessary).

Thanks for your help, I think we're on the verge of having all the details ironed out and I can get this sucker and send it off to Mike Kinal. John, you've been alot of help. I'm really looking forward to this one.

[John East]

Originally Posted by DaveAceofBass

I didn't mean for it to seem as though you weren't replying. Sorry if I came off that way, especially on the TB board here.

No problem Dave.

It gave that impression, and I just wanted put that right, even though slower than both of us would like!

Cheers

John