PJ Pickup set for extremely middy bass - need recommendation

[goran]

I have already asked the same question on official Warwick forum and here, on talkbass, in another thread, but I still didn't got answer that would push me in the right direction. This is why I'm posting a new thread that will hopefully drag a little more attention.

The band I play consists of 2 guitarists (one guitarist is doubling on keys), drummer and me. We play alternative/modern rock with a lot of electronica elements. Guitars are not "heavy", to put it that way, so I have no problem with being myself heard. We are always aiming for a balanced mix where every instrument has it's own sonic space. While I have no issues doing that with my other bass, I have a "problem" with my Warwick Streamer Stage I (all maple with 3 wenge strips in the neck /active EMG pickups / Aguilar OBP-3 electronics). While it is extremely well built, very playable and resonant, there is so much mids that I'm intrusing guitars' sonic space (I know, the opposite of what we usually read about on this forum ).

I'm looking for a pickup set that will give me a deep, but articulate sound. In short, I need to support the band with deep bass (I'm not talking about sub-lows, but a low-end "fullness") when needed, but I need it to be articulate at the the time. Let's suppose that I won't have any problem with articulation, given there is so much mids already. (On the last rehearsal, I had to cut all hi-mids on bass (-16dB on 800Hz) to get the sound that wouldn't stick-out too much).

The main problem (if you want to call it that way, I see a lot of applications where this sound would do the trick) is that low end is lacking, compared to my other bass, a 70's jazz bass clone equipped with active EMGs and EMG BTC electronics. I'm attaching a recording I did for my band so you can hear how does it sound like (this sound actually works for this particular song. Pickup pan is on 50/50, bass is boosted a little, everything else is set flat)
space - Warwick.mp3 - File Shared from Box.net - Free Online File Storage

Last, let me say that I have tried 4 different sets of strings so far (SIT PowerNickel, DR Sunbeams, D'Addario Chromes (yuck!) and Elixirs). It currently stringed with Elixirs which I found to compliment it the best acoustically. I won't try the steel strings because I'm affraid of the fret wear (combination of my fretting/plucking technique & steel strings wouldn't do much good to the frets).

I'm open to all suggestions, be it passive or active pickups and as long they don't cost an arm and a leg.

PS
English is not my native language so I hope my description won't take you at the wrong track.

Thanks,
Goran

[recnsci]

Any suggestion would be merely pointing in some direction. You basically want mid scoop and different people have different definitions of what scoop is, and further more effect is highly dependent on your particular bass. My advice would be to test all Seymour Duncan and Dimarzio pickups you can get (those should be easy to get in your area and reside at the bottom of replacement pickup list price wise).

For neck you should test Duncans SPB-2 and SPB-3, and for bridge Model J and Ultra Jazz from Dimarzio and maybe Duncans SJB-2. Even if none of those help with issue, you can easily resell them with negligible overall loss (and you could buy them second hand).

Further more, passive control can offer you some more degrees of freedom over active mix/EQ in Warwick. In particular, strapping fixed resistor across pickup will "dull out" sound by damping pickup (you will loose more high frequencies than mids, but that is easy and very cheap thing to try out first). Or even full blown passive setup.

I guess bunch of people will advise you on technique adjustment, and while that is mostly pointless, IMHO playing right over split P pickup or toward the bridge will push out most mids. If you can play 2-3 cm from P pickup toward the neck could help (but I'm fairly certain you already know this). Also heavier gauge strings could maybe (BTW, I'm quite religious about Rotosound Swing Bass Steels, which most people consider harshest, most evil thing on Earth, and I don't have problems with fret wear, but as you said - it depends on your fretting style; more important issue for your problem is that steels usually have more mids).

BTW, I have Highway-1 Jazz bass with sort of same problem, and in the end I think it's inherent tone of bass it self which you can mitigate to some extent but never completely alleviate.

[bassgod0dmw]

I want to throw in the fact that a maple bass with reverse P/J's is going to sound like that...changing the electronics will certainly alter the tone but I don't think you're going to get rid of the inherent sound of the bass

Warwick SS1's and Spector NS-2's are purchased because people want that sound.

[Shoewreck]

Have you tried lowering your EMG's? You may also try some half round SS strings - they would sound smoother and won't hurt your frets.

[goran]

Originally Posted by recnsci

Any suggestion would be merely pointing in some direction. You basically want mid scoop and different people have different definitions of what scoop is, and further more effect is highly dependent on your particular bass. My advice would be to test all Seymour Duncan and Dimarzio pickups you can get (those should be easy to get in your area and reside at the bottom of replacement pickup list price wise).

For neck you should test Duncans SPB-2 and SPB-3, and for bridge Model J and Ultra Jazz from Dimarzio and maybe Duncans SJB-2. Even if none of those help with issue, you can easily resell them with negligible overall loss (and you could buy them second hand).

Further more, passive control can offer you some more degrees of freedom over active mix/EQ in Warwick. In particular, strapping fixed resistor across pickup will "dull out" sound by damping pickup (you will loose more high frequencies than mids, but that is easy and very cheap thing to try out first). Or even full blown passive setup.

I guess bunch of people will advise you on technique adjustment, and while that is mostly pointless, IMHO playing right over split P pickup or toward the bridge will push out most mids. If you can play 2-3 cm from P pickup toward the neck could help (but I'm fairly certain you already know this). Also heavier gauge strings could maybe (BTW, I'm quite religious about Rotosound Swing Bass Steels, which most people consider harshest, most evil thing on Earth, and I don't have problems with fret wear, but as you said - it depends on your fretting style; more important issue for your problem is that steels usually have more mids).

BTW, I have Highway-1 Jazz bass with sort of same problem, and in the end I think it's inherent tone of bass it self which you can mitigate to some extent but never completely alleviate.

Actually, SDs and DiMarzios are on top of my list of replacements, given their popular price. I'm leaning towards SDs because of a bad experience with DiMarzio J set that turned my other bass in a total mud. But, now that I'm thinking of it, it might work well in conjunction with Warwick woods...

As far as the technique is concerned, yes, plucking closer to the neck yields a better result, but at the expense of having less control over muting of the strings with my right hand. I usually pluck just over the P-pickup and I find it a "sweet spot" between fullness of sound and muting technique (couldn't remember the right word, but I guess you'll know what I meant )

Passive control - I have it installed on the bass (fifth pot). It works only when preamp is bypassed, but because the (sonic) nature of the current pickups, I don't use it . I guess it would work well with passive pickups..

Originally Posted by bassgod0dmw

I want to throw in the fact that a maple bass with reverse P/J's is going to sound like that...changing the electronics will certainly alter the tone but I don't think you're going to get rid of the inherent sound of the bass

Warwick SS1's and Spector NS-2's are purchased because people want that sound.

I know and I kind of expected it to have more mids than I'm used to, but this came up as a total surprise! I'm aware that I can't turn this bass into something it wasn't supposed to be, but I'm hoping I could get it half way there. As I said, craftsmanship and playability are superb. I'm willing to sacrifice a little sound because of it.

Originally Posted by Shoewreck

Have you tried lowering your EMG's? You may also try some half round SS strings - they would sound smoother and won't hurt your frets.

Yes, they are far from recommended 2mm. I guess 5-6 mm for the neck pickup, and little less for bridge pickup. I will try to lower them further more, expecting this will take out some of the upper-mids and highs. As for half-rounds, I think they would take too much of the treble bite. From my past experience, I think the pickup swap is what this bass need.

[KJAXE]

My first thought is to purchase a 31 band eq & use that to adjust your tone to your liking. you can get a used one pretty cheap & 31 band will allow you to be more precise in your adjustment.

[FunkMetalBass]

What strings are you using? Maybe switching to flats or half-rounds would be a better choice? How about soloing the neck pickup and moving your plucking hand closer to the neck?

Truthfully, I hear absolutely no lack of bass or low-mid presence in that recording. Can you post another recording of the jazz bass tone that you're trying to cop? Your Aguilar OBP-3 has a selectable mid frequency of 800Hz or 400Hz (which can be adjusted down as low as 200Hz, see this wiring diagram, page 5, so maybe you just need to play around with it some more to get the tone you want.

[SSCBA]

IMO it sounds great, even listening from my smartphone.

Are you using any particular amp or only DI/PA? If it's an amp, which one?
If using and amp you should try lowering mids, some higs, and boosting lows, and usin functions like gk's contour, eden enhace, etc.
Also, you could try paning your pu balance more towards the neck pu.
You can also try flats and some kind of eq pedal/pre.
If nothing of this gives good results, then you might consider swapping for sd's, bartolinis, or something like that.

Good luck

[goran]

I appreciate all your answers, but I feel I need to point that the purpose of this thread is about pickups suggestions. I have tried a couple of different string sets (including flatwounds, which suck on this bass BTW). I tried lowering the pickups and, while I gained some low end, I lost too much of the high end.

Shifting blend pot towards the neck pickup doesn't give that much bass as one would expect. Actually, the fullest sound comes when both pickups are blended equally.

The recording was done direct in the recording interface, no subsequent EQ or compression was applied. As I said, this sound works for this particular song. I don't foresee that I will have a problem recording with this bass. What I do have problem with is it's sound when playing live, be it rehearsal or a gig.

I play through EBS Fafner --> Eden D410 XLT. That cab is perfectly capable of producing enough low end with my other bass (EMG-equipped jazz bas clone). I do have a some kind of "low end boost" on the Fafner which, again, doesn't give me what I want. I feel that boosting something that isn't already there in the first place won't give satisfactory results. It has a parametric EQ as well and boosting in 150-250Hz region still didn't give what I wanted.

So, to sum it up: I put this thread in "Pickups & Electronics" for a reason. Please, I need recommendations for different pickups.

Thanks!

[Shoewreck]

Originally Posted by goran

So, to sum it up: I put this thread in "Pickups & Electronics" for a reason. Please, I need recommendations for different pickups.

People advise you to look elsewhere for a reason, too. Your bass produces strong upper midrange and single coil pickups in their particular positions help that. Trying different pickups of similar type you would mostly change how your highs/higher mids sound, not low/low mids.

Do your fellow musicians experience your problem? (I mean, do they hear too much of your bass guitar?).
Have you tried walking off the central axis of your amp to the central axis of a guitar amp? Does the problem persist?
Have you tried positioning your plucking hand closer to the neck or to any position not above a pickup?

[goran]

First of all, let me tell that I appreciate all your input. I didn't mean to sound ungrateful. I only wanted to shift the conversation in the direction I felt was right.

Originally Posted by Shoewreck

Do your fellow musicians experience your problem? (I mean, do they hear too much of your bass guitar?).

Yes, my bandmates have said the same. Actually, I took the bass to a friend of mine 3 days ago, he plays bass for almost 30 years and he's had his share of Warwicks too. He noticed the same thing. He said that this is the Warwick sound. With one exception - he said that his Streamer Stage I with stock MEC pickups had more bass (P-pickup). Actually, P-pickup on his Streamer had so much bass that it was hard to control. I don't have that problem with mine.

Originally Posted by Shoewreck

Have you tried walking off the central axis of your amp to the central axis of a guitar amp? Does the problem persist?

Actually, yes, I have. Sound changes, yes, but basic character is always the same.

Originally Posted by Shoewreck

Have you tried positioning your plucking hand closer to the neck or to any position not above a pickup?

Yes, the sound gets fuller, but not enough. And as I said, this is not an option. It's just not comfortable for me to play that close to the neck. I have been building my style for the past 15 years and I won't change it because of the bass. If I can't make it work for me, I'll sell it, no big deal.

Originally Posted by Shoewreck

People advise you to look elsewhere for a reason, too. Your bass produces strong upper midrange and single coil pickups in their particular positions help that. Trying different pickups of similar type you would mostly change how your highs/higher mids sound, not low/low mids.

Are you sure about this? Just asking, because I see in your profile that you have a vintage Streamer too. Did you do a pickup swap too?

I completely agree that this bass is more mid-oriented. And I'll be perfectly fine if I don't get what I want with the pickup swap. But what's funny is that there are 10 posts in this thread and, except the first reply, I haven't got a single recommendation for pickups. And that was the sole reason for opening the thread.
I know you are all trying to help... I don't know... Maybe I'm just too stubborn to admit that Streamer is simply not for me.

[SSCBA]

I'd recommend active seymour duncans if you want to try. Por active precision spb-1, and Pro active Jazz ajj-1, but these are replacement kits so I don't know if you can get only one separate J pickup. With the P pickup there will be not problem because the kit includes only one.

[Shoewreck]

Originally Posted by goran

Are you sure about this? Just asking, because I see in your profile that you have a vintage Streamer too. Did you do a pickup swap too?

No, I just installed TI flats on it. Tried to like it with rounds, but couldn't stand the feeling of an angry monster behind my back.

[Matthijs]

I think I can advise you based on similar experiences. My main electric bass is a frettless Yamaha bb1200 that was originally equiped with a EMG reverse PJ set. The tremendous amount of high mid, specially with it being frettles, made me clash with other instruments (in me case tenor saxophones).

What I did was: Change to nickels with a lot of low mid content (GHS Boomers), and change the pu's to a modern take on classicly voiced pickup's (eventually Nordstrands) with a pre amp (bartolini tc buffering amp). The classic voicing and the passive tone control emphasise the lower mid content, the modern touch and the pre amp provide a tad more low and high end and the passive combination of the p and j provides enough of a scoop when needed. I'm content this way. I can go from old school passive p to a modern active pj sound and I'm not sounding like a tenor-guitar anymore.

[FunkMetalBass]

This wasn't addressed in your responses, but have you tried switching the mid frequency to 400Hz and adjusting that on your OBP-3? (It's probably a push-pull pot on the mid control)

Look toward overwound pickups. They tend to have more focus in the low-mids. Given that it only happens in live situations and I have no experience with your amp or cab, that's the best anyone can do.

Why not contact Delano or some other pickup manufacturer and tell them the troubles you're having? They can probably custom make a pickup for you.