Placing a third pickup in P-Bass Special

[Doctor Dread]

Hi you all!

I'm a guitarist who stumbled into bass arena by chance, for my home recordings (totaly amateur, amplitube and stuff) and for casual playing with friends - too many guitarists around, and no bass players. So I bought me a shiny new Indonesian Squier P-Bass Special, and immediately fell in love with playing the bass.

For playing old rock with the guys on Fender FM 212R amp, this P-Bass Special is OK. But on my own, I play mostly my own reggae and atmospherics stuff where I need some seriously deeeeeep, warm bass sound. No slapping & tapping – I don't know how to do it right. Just a one-tone rubber ball filled with honey, bouncing around in the room.

I know there are far better guitars on the market, but due to financial limitations (two kids in school etc) and a tough spouse factor this Squier is what I'm stuck with. Now I can't fool my wife with a new guitar suddenly appearing instead of an old one, but I can fool around with PU configuration I've ordered a Fender Original P-Bass PU to replace this Squier one with, and I have a project in mind:

I want to install a new PU in the new position near the neck, like Squier did on Precision Modified. I've opted for Seymor-Duncan Quarter Pound SPB-3, it's 7/4/6 tone chart seems to promise that deep bass. And lager pole-pieces will be able to pick up the extreme string vibrations at that spot. I'll throw away cheap electronics from the guitar, make a one volume-one tone configuration, and install a Strat 5-position switch (but mostly it would be 1st/2nd/3rd PU choice)

Among friends I have accomplished electronics and DIY-with-wood guys, so drilling holes and dealing with electronic issues won't be a problem. But there are some big unknowns:

1. Where's the right spot (harmonics etc wise) to place that new PU? What is the exact distance from the 20-th fret?
2. Should I measure that distance from the center of the E and A pole-pieces, or from the line where two PU pieces come together?
3. Will the extra magnet power kill sustain significantly, or damage the P-bass tone?
4. By doing all this, will I get a much deeper bas?

[luknfur]

You might check out FAQ the 1st paragraph of Dimento's Trouble Shooting guiding for the Bass Mod Guide. That will answer most of your questions and then some.

Poles won't be an issue unless you have them too close to the strings - just like a guitar.

[dataBASS5]

There's no good place to put a third pup on a bass. I've tried and am speaking from experience. It all comes back to the old saying "just because you can, doesn't mean you should."

Let's assume (for argument's sake) that your neck pup is halfway between the bridge and the neck. Let's assume your bridge pup is 1/3 the way between the bridge and the neck.

The tonal difference between the two pups is already subtle, but creating a third position pup isn't going to make much more difference. It will only get in the way (if you ever decided to slap) and the sweet spot on your strings is not affected.

Granted, this is a very crude illustration--forgive me for only going into this briefly. Hope that helps!

[markdavid]

Originally Posted by Doctor Dread

Hi you all!

I'm a guitarist who stumbled into bass arena by chance, for my home recordings (totaly amateur, amplitube and stuff) and for casual playing with friends - too many guitarists around, and no bass players. So I bought me a shiny new Indonesian Squier P-Bass Special, and immediately fell in love with playing the bass.

For playing old rock with the guys on Fender FM 212R amp, this P-Bass Special is OK. But on my own, I play mostly my own reggae and atmospherics stuff where I need some seriously deeeeeep, warm bass sound. No slapping & tapping – I don't know how to do it right. Just a one-tone rubber ball filled with honey, bouncing around in the room.

I know there are far better guitars on the market, but due to financial limitations (two kids in school etc) and a tough spouse factor this Squier is what I'm stuck with. Now I can't fool my wife with a new guitar suddenly appearing instead of an old one, but I can fool around with PU configuration I've ordered a Fender Original P-Bass PU to replace this Squier one with, and I have a project in mind:

I want to install a new PU in the new position near the neck, like Squier did on Precision Modified. I've opted for Seymor-Duncan Quarter Pound SPB-3, it's 7/4/6 tone chart seems to promise that deep bass. And lager pole-pieces will be able to pick up the extreme string vibrations at that spot. I'll throw away cheap electronics from the guitar, make a one volume-one tone configuration, and install a Strat 5-position switch (but mostly it would be 1st/2nd/3rd PU choice)

Among friends I have accomplished electronics and DIY-with-wood guys, so drilling holes and dealing with electronic issues won't be a problem. But there are some big unknowns:

1. Where's the right spot (harmonics etc wise) to place that new PU? What is the exact distance from the 20-th fret?
2. Should I measure that distance from the center of the E and A pole-pieces, or from the line where two PU pieces come together?
3. Will the extra magnet power kill sustain significantly, or damage the P-bass tone?
4. By doing all this, will I get a much deeper bas?

The quarterpounder is a good pickup but you will probably have to lower it quite a bit to balance the volume with the other p/ups , this may not really be a problem it may be just a case of raising the fender pickup and lowering the seymour duncan. I would however look into the differing impedences to avoid volume problems

[DavePlaysBass]

Just get some good pickups in the Squire. You say its a player so you probably have some good wood.

Do some research and replace the P and J pickups with something of higher quality. And then go on a string experiment spree. Strings will have a huge impact on the tone of a bass. Usually strings have more impact then pickup changes which are typically more subtle.

Regards,

Dave

[jim primate]

replace the squire p/u with the 1/4 lb'er.

disconnect the jazz pickup. roll down the tone knob.

boom: instant reggae tone.

[Webtroll]

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gibson-EB-3-EB-2...QQcmdZViewItem

not mine mind you, but prolly an interesting neck pickup for a P bass

[fuNKmaster83]

modding a P with a gibson EB0 pickups isnever a bad idea...

[Doctor Dread]

Thank you very much for the answers, guys! You are helping me to understand this wonderful instrument. Being a guitarist for 25 years, I'm a bit ashamed that only now I'm discovering this powerful feeling of pumping the lows for the band – and how creative and commanding that can be. And this feeling of an open E, unplugged, this vibration in your belly and hands... like, it beats the crap out of chords. This physical feedback of an instrument is something new, something my Strats, a Tele and a Robben Ford Elite were never able to give. OK, enough of this bass zen... (but I'm in love, really).

to luknfur: just been there. I'm amazed! How come you know all that? You are either a pro in the industry (and a very good one), or some psychic medium for Leo or Clayton Wow! It'll take me some time to think over all of those informations. And thanks for the magnet power issue clarification. I've guessed the same thing, 'cause bass strings have much more mass than the guitar ones. It'll take a HUGE magnet beneath and close to mess things up.

to dataBASS5: IMHO, the tonal difference between J on bridge and P in the middle is not so subtle (at least on my bass) (and they are not the same pups, ant the third-to-be, a quarterpounder, is also different), and I would like to go further on that road. And looking at the old Gibsons and this new Precision Modified, it seems to me that the "as left as possible" is the sound I'm missing. If you just follow the tonal difference logic in moving from bridge to the middle, and extrapolate the future neck sound, you'll bound to have (at least expect) a very deep, not so tonaly clear, but window-breaking bass. Anyway, Stu Hamm did manage to make a true P/J with three pups on Urge II. Have you tried to place P near the neck? What did you came up with? I would very much appreciate your experience.

to markdavid: yes, I'm aware of that, but volume won't be a problem. There's no need for me to quickly switch on the stage, it'll more be like "wait a sec, let me adjust the volume for the next one. And bring one beer for me too." And thanks for confirming a quarterpounder.

to DavePlaysBass: ..and your reply really got me worried. I know you are 100% right, much more than I'd like. I know that from guitars. This bass still has it's original 7250 Super Bass ML's. I'm browsing the forums on that issue, and I've decided that for starters I'll stick to Fender and learn the differences between "flats", as you call them, the 9050s and the "tapes", 9120s. Then the fun of finding the right ones starts... Honestly, I cringe.

to jim primate: maybe I'll do just that, mate. Already have a pretty decent reggae tone with P only. I bring J just for old new-wave stuff like The Jam to emulate (as humble as it may be) a Rick in those mod songs. P-Bass is the one I need. And mixing P and J on this guitar does something wrong to P sound, makes it quiet. OK, a J brings on definition of the note and gives it a more aggressive bite, but not so pleasantly aggressive (but than again, this is not a true J pup).

to Webtroll and fuNKmaster83: Yes, this Gibson is what I'm talking about! And it was placed on the exact spot I'm considering! But for the time being (and having a buddy in a store with no Gibson pups, but with an employer's discount on Fender and SD pups), I'm sticking to that

This whole idea of mine is not mixing those pups. I just want to get a broader tonal palette on this Squier. It's astonishly well built, firm and all, and it's agathis body has some nervous quality to it. Sounds angry and full at the same time, spiteful. Yes, I've tried regular MIA P's and stuff, they really rock, but I'm, how shall I put it, "not so unpleased" with mine. I've done the setup and fretwork, and now it's a perfectly playable bass. The idea is to add an extra deep tone, EXTRA DEEP. That's why I'm asking you guys for the advice. I will not go on a soldering frenzy, no single/humbucking, phase in/out pots, no! Just one master tone and one master volume. And a Strat switch (think old Strat, 3-position), for just the first or just the second or just the third pup. It's enough no-nonsense in my book. Maybe I'll just wait for both pups to arrive (The Original P and a Quarterpounder), and I'll try to find a sweet spot with a bare plugged pup in my hand placed above the strings? What do you think of that?

And once again, I'm very grateful that you all shared your experiences. You Talk Bass guys are a great bunch!

[A9X]

The Dimarzio Model 1 is a replacement for the Gibson bucker. There's also the DM Model G and the Shaller Bassbucker that fit. You can try geetar pickups like any of the rail pole HB's either Strat or standard HB shaped. I also like the DM X2N for bass.

I've mad a few suggestions in other threads recently about the Gibson replacements. Do a search.

One thing to remember too, is you can test and get an idea of tone quickly and easily be turning the pickup upside down and placing it over the strings, spaced up with some styro or wood blocks and help in position with some gaffer / duct tape. Run the pickup leads to the amp directly. If you have a few guitarist mates they'll probably have a few spare pickups laying around you can try to help narrow down the selection before you start cutting holes.

[Doctor Dread]

Just checked this Model One od yours, looks like this thing rocks! It simply LOOKS like it'll do the job. Thanks, I didn't know about that one. And guitar picks, yes, I have quite a few laying around, but I don't like the idea of new covers and slanting Strat pups... this thing has to be a killer rectangle. And great idea with the styro as a blocker!

[A9X]

All the Strat sized HB's I've tried will fit straight under a std guitar HB cover, which is about $2.
The M1 is likely cheapest and easiest.

[dataBASS5]

Originally Posted by Doctor Dread

to dataBASS5: IMHO, the tonal difference between J on bridge and P in the middle is not so subtle (at least on my bass) (and they are not the same pups, ant the third-to-be, a quarterpounder, is also different), and I would like to go further on that road. And looking at the old Gibsons and this new Precision Modified, it seems to me that the "as left as possible" is the sound I'm missing. If you just follow the tonal difference logic in moving from bridge to the middle, and extrapolate the future neck sound, you'll bound to have (at least expect) a very deep, not so tonaly clear, but window-breaking bass. Anyway, Stu Hamm did manage to make a true P/J with three pups on Urge II. Have you tried to place P near the neck? What did you came up with? I would very much appreciate your experience.

Once again I'm fighting the uphill battle being the only one trying to persuade you. . . DON'T DO IT, MAN!

My experience was with active pups. I've tried placing a pup between the neck and bridge, and briefly tried placing one closer to the neck. The neck position pup really got in the way (for me) and that was more of a problem than I thought.

My (3rd and new) neck pup sounded more like my bridge pup. This was not what I expected.

I'm still from the school of thought that says, if this configuration would give bassists more of what they want, more of the pros playing and more of the high end luthiers would be doing it.

IMHO the sound you're after could be attained if you installed 2 active pups (in the established locations) with the ability to series/parallel BOTH of them. Or, for a whole lot of fun, try installing a tone wheel as one of your pots!

[markdavid]

Originally Posted by Doctor Dread

Thank you very much for the answers, guys! You are helping me to understand this wonderful instrument. Being a guitarist for 25 years, I'm a bit ashamed that only now I'm discovering this powerful feeling of pumping the lows for the band – and how creative and commanding that can be. And this feeling of an open E, unplugged, this vibration in your belly and hands... like, it beats the crap out of chords. This physical feedback of an instrument is something new, something my Strats, a Tele and a Robben Ford Elite were never able to give. OK, enough of this bass zen... (but I'm in love, really).

to luknfur: just been there. I'm amazed! How come you know all that? You are either a pro in the industry (and a very good one), or some psychic medium for Leo or Clayton Wow! It'll take me some time to think over all of those informations. And thanks for the magnet power issue clarification. I've guessed the same thing, 'cause bass strings have much more mass than the guitar ones. It'll take a HUGE magnet beneath and close to mess things up.

to dataBASS5: IMHO, the tonal difference between J on bridge and P in the middle is not so subtle (at least on my bass) (and they are not the same pups, ant the third-to-be, a quarterpounder, is also different), and I would like to go further on that road. And looking at the old Gibsons and this new Precision Modified, it seems to me that the "as left as possible" is the sound I'm missing. If you just follow the tonal difference logic in moving from bridge to the middle, and extrapolate the future neck sound, you'll bound to have (at least expect) a very deep, not so tonaly clear, but window-breaking bass. Anyway, Stu Hamm did manage to make a true P/J with three pups on Urge II. Have you tried to place P near the neck? What did you came up with? I would very much appreciate your experience.

to markdavid: yes, I'm aware of that, but volume won't be a problem. There's no need for me to quickly switch on the stage, it'll more be like "wait a sec, let me adjust the volume for the next one. And bring one beer for me too." And thanks for confirming a quarterpounder.

to DavePlaysBass: ..and your reply really got me worried. I know you are 100% right, much more than I'd like. I know that from guitars. This bass still has it's original 7250 Super Bass ML's. I'm browsing the forums on that issue, and I've decided that for starters I'll stick to Fender and learn the differences between "flats", as you call them, the 9050s and the "tapes", 9120s. Then the fun of finding the right ones starts... Honestly, I cringe.

to jim primate: maybe I'll do just that, mate. Already have a pretty decent reggae tone with P only. I bring J just for old new-wave stuff like The Jam to emulate (as humble as it may be) a Rick in those mod songs. P-Bass is the one I need. And mixing P and J on this guitar does something wrong to P sound, makes it quiet. OK, a J brings on definition of the note and gives it a more aggressive bite, but not so pleasantly aggressive (but than again, this is not a true J pup).

to Webtroll and fuNKmaster83: Yes, this Gibson is what I'm talking about! And it was placed on the exact spot I'm considering! But for the time being (and having a buddy in a store with no Gibson pups, but with an employer's discount on Fender and SD pups), I'm sticking to that

This whole idea of mine is not mixing those pups. I just want to get a broader tonal palette on this Squier. It's astonishly well built, firm and all, and it's agathis body has some nervous quality to it. Sounds angry and full at the same time, spiteful. Yes, I've tried regular MIA P's and stuff, they really rock, but I'm, how shall I put it, "not so unpleased" with mine. I've done the setup and fretwork, and now it's a perfectly playable bass. The idea is to add an extra deep tone, EXTRA DEEP. That's why I'm asking you guys for the advice. I will not go on a soldering frenzy, no single/humbucking, phase in/out pots, no! Just one master tone and one master volume. And a Strat switch (think old Strat, 3-position), for just the first or just the second or just the third pup. It's enough no-nonsense in my book. Maybe I'll just wait for both pups to arrive (The Original P and a Quarterpounder), and I'll try to find a sweet spot with a bare plugged pup in my hand placed above the strings? What do you think of that?

And once again, I'm very grateful that you all shared your experiences. You Talk Bass guys are a great bunch!

The Quarterpounders are good pickups , the only thing to watch for is that the emphasis is on stronger highs and lows which means that you will need to roll of the treble for reggae , Seymour Duncan Hots are meant to be quite deep sounding (despite being only a 5 on the tone chart for bass) as well as they are said to have rolled off highs and strong lows and strong low mids. Obviously if you are going to be using flats then the strong treble on the Quarterpounders is unlikely to be an issue