A Rick 4003 neck pickup on a P Bass?

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

Sooo ... any place can fella can hear this a bit better (Ric pickup on a P-bass, or even a J-bass for that matter)?

Any SoundClouds or Vidz or ???

I'm going to bet that it sounds somewhat like this. This is a TB'er who installed a J pup under the pickguard on this P. The P pup is broken a bit so it's really trebly. I'll bet that the Ric neck with a J bridge would be in the ballpark like this.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by fourstringbliss

I'm going to bet that it sounds somewhat like this. This is a TB'er who installed a J pup under the pickguard on this P. The P pup is broken a bit so it's really trebly. I'll bet that the Ric neck with a J bridge would be in the ballpark like this.

Holy cats. That thing sounds great.

I've always held the theory that the "Ric sound" has a lot to do with pickup placement. I personally think that actually carries the larger partion of the weight to be honest. That video you linked sortof backs that idea up.

I didn't find it to be really trebly at all, in fact I'd bet that once that bass is interjected into a mix with other instruments it would sound nearly indistinguishable from a Ric. The audience would certainly never know the difference, that's for true!

Isolated Tom Sawyer bass track ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlGibhuobrM (I realize that is a J-bass, just sayin how much top end is present on a sound that gets lost in a song's mix)

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

Holy cats. That thing sounds great.

I've always held the theory that the "Ric sound" has a lot to do with pickup placement. I personally think that actually carries the larger partion of the weight to be honest. That video you linked sortof backs that idea up.

I didn't find it to be really trebly at all, in fact I'd bet that once that bass is interjected into a mix with other instruments it would sound nearly indistinguishable from a Ric. The audience would certainly never know the difference, that's for true!

Isolated Tom Sawyer bass track ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlGibhuobrM (I realize that is a J-bass, just sayin how much top end is present on a sound that gets lost in a song's mix)

It sounds amazing to me! If you look at the comments in the video he mentions that there was something wrong with the P pup in the video and that it wasn't as full sounding as a regular P. When he replaced it with a fully functional P pup the bass no longer sounded Ric like.

I think I'll be able to get close using the front coil of the MM pup and the Ric neck pup. Like you said, it won't be a real Ric, but it should sound good.

[Strat Hater]

Originally Posted by Nightvision

She's Alive!!! Alive!!!





Fender New American Standard, Duncan SPB1 & SJB1, Rickenbacker Hi Gain neck pickup.
Wiring with Vol / tone / 5 way selector switch

I want to do this myself. Do you have any sound samples and did you just use the stock cap or is that Ric valued as well?

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

Holy cats. That thing sounds great.

I've always held the theory that the "Ric sound" has a lot to do with pickup placement. I personally think that actually carries the larger partion of the weight to be honest. That video you linked sortof backs that idea up.

I didn't find it to be really trebly at all, in fact I'd bet that once that bass is interjected into a mix with other instruments it would sound nearly indistinguishable from a Ric. The audience would certainly never know the difference, that's for true!

Isolated Tom Sawyer bass track ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlGibhuobrM (I realize that is a J-bass, just sayin how much top end is present on a sound that gets lost in a song's mix)

So, you think it has more to do with pickup placement than the actual pickup? I ask because I had been toying with the idea of installing a high gain guitar pickup under the pickguard in my bass in about that spot. Would that sound about the same - assuming it had a single-coil sound to it?

[ClassicAmps]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

...I've always held the theory that the "Ric sound" has a lot to do with pickup placement. I personally think that actually carries the larger partion of the weight to be honest.

I'd have to disagree with that, oh sure placement is a big thing but the Ric (bridge, and hi-gain) tone is not an alnico pole thing, it's steel rivets with an bottom-mounted magnet, a lot fuller sound with th steel in the mixture (without the "glass") than a Jazz pickup tone.
(except the toaster, that is)

Just my opinion, YMMV.



Wish mine had a rosewood fretboard like yours.

Anyway, this pic is old but currently I've got an "experimental" pickup in that bridge pickup position where the jazz pickup was in this pic, it's a Ric bridge (coil) under a jazz cover, it sounds much different than the alnico twin-pole jazz pickups, I've got to work out a couple things but I'll post a pic when it's done.

[fourstringbliss]

That makes sense. I'll stick with the ric replacement pup.

[fourstringbliss]

I'm definitely going to give this a shot on the bass I pictured earlier, but I've been going round and round about how to make the electronics work. It dawned on me that I never really mess with volume controls except to turn them on or off. When I choose a pickup I usually play it full up.

What about using a push/pull pot for each pickup. The pot part would be tone and the switch part would turn the pickup on or off. I'm thinking that down would be the pickup on. That way I'm not messing with concentric pots or adding switches to my pickguard and I can choose the combination of pickups that I want.

Do you think this would work?

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by ClassicAmps

I'd have to disagree with that, oh sure placement is a big thing but the Ric (bridge, and hi-gain) tone is not an alnico pole thing, it's steel rivets with an bottom-mounted magnet, a lot fuller sound with th steel in the mixture (without the "glass") than a Jazz pickup tone.
(except the toaster, that is)

I'm just using my ears and my eyes. When I listen to 70's Rush, and I listen to modern Niacin, I hear nearly the same sounds. Niacin has Billy Sheehan playing bass, his Yamaha Attitude bass has a humbucker in the Ric-neck position and another pickup in the Ric "bridge" position.

Then I hear the video that Fourstringbliss posted of the guy that has the P with the sneaky J-bass pickup in the Ric-neck position coupled with the stock-placed P-bass pickup. And aqain, there's ~that sound~ coming at us all over again.

Common demoninator between Geddy's Ric, Sheehan's Yamaha, and that TB member's P? Pickup placement. It is the ONLY thing those three basses have in common, other than their very similar sounds. Sheehan's Attitude bass has the pickups placed in nearly exact "Ric" positions, the TB member's P-bass has the pickups in nearly "Ric" positions. They both have the same tonal characteristics as Geddy's Ric tones from the 70's.

My wife and I were just sortof marveling over that earlier this afternoon. We A/B'd a Niacin song with a few sections of the song 2112 ... almost indistinguishable.

I think the pickup type is actually more about nuance and refinement, but I think that using the "fret 24" neck pickup and splitting "fret 24" and "fret 36" positions with the other pickup is actually what gets you closer to ~that sound~ than actual pickup type.

If you look at a Ric and a P, the Ric's "bridge" pickup is nearly in the same relative location as the P-bass's pickups are (between F24 and F36). Add the "F24" pickup to the P and the sound is very very close to a Ric.

Once placement is accomplished then pickup type selection caps it off. But if you do it the other way, and just try to use pickup types but in the wrong places, you're NEVER gonna get there. Go the other way around, place pretty much any decent pickups in the right places and you're pretty much in Ricville.

All of that having been said I think pickup placement is priority A, and pickup type is secondary. Once the placement is correct then you can fine tune things by choosing whatever it is a person feels is the best set of pickups to suit their needs.

But without that placement thing, it's all gonna go nowhere fast.

What do I know? Um .... nothing really. Just observing.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by fourstringbliss

I'm definitely going to give this a shot on the bass I pictured earlier, but I've been going round and round about how to make the electronics work. It dawned on me that I never really mess with volume controls except to turn them on or off. When I choose a pickup I usually play it full up.

What about using a push/pull pot for each pickup. The pot part would be tone and the switch part would turn the pickup on or off. I'm thinking that down would be the pickup on. That way I'm not messing with concentric pots or adding switches to my pickguard and I can choose the combination of pickups that I want.

Do you think this would work?

Almost anything will "work", what it comes down to is will you like it? And that is totally up to you.

Look into using "push-push" switchpots. Push down on the knob and it pops up all by itself. Push down on it again and it latches in the down position. I use those on nearly all my bass and guitar builds. With the Push-Push type of switchpot you don't have to try to grab on to the knob itself to pull it up, which can be clumsy at times. All you have to do is push down on the knob and it pops right up all by itself. You can kinda smack it a little if you're playing in a ... let's say "spirited" manner.

[ClassicAmps]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

...70's Rush...Niacin, I hear nearly the same sounds...

As said, YMMV.

There are many musicians who hear the same sound when using different pickups. Fortunately (unfortunately?) most my customers can hear these differences, makes winding pickups a challenge at times.

It's all good, though, I'm certainly not here to argue but just chimed in about the Ric-in-the-PBass thing since I have one and can hear the difference. My Pbass doesn't sound like a Ric, but it sounds good and can get a Ric-like groove going on.

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

Almost anything will "work", what it comes down to is will you like it? And that is totally up to you.

Look into using "push-push" switchpots. Push down on the knob and it pops up all by itself. Push down on it again and it latches in the down position. I use those on nearly all my bass and guitar builds. With the Push-Push type of switchpot you don't have to try to grab on to the knob itself to pull it up, which can be clumsy at times. All you have to do is push down on the knob and it pops right up all by itself. You can kinda smack it a little if you're playing in a ... let's say "spirited" manner.

Genius! I never knew about push/push pots. That solves it! One push/push tone pot for each pickup makes it easy to get whatever pickup combination I could want.

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

I'm just using my ears and my eyes. When I listen to 70's Rush, and I listen to modern Niacin, I hear nearly the same sounds. Niacin has Billy Sheehan playing bass, his Yamaha Attitude bass has a humbucker in the Ric-neck position and another pickup in the Ric "bridge" position.

Then I hear the video that Fourstringbliss posted of the guy that has the P with the sneaky J-bass pickup in the Ric-neck position coupled with the stock-placed P-bass pickup. And aqain, there's ~that sound~ coming at us all over again.

Common demoninator between Geddy's Ric, Sheehan's Yamaha, and that TB member's P? Pickup placement. It is the ONLY thing those three basses have in common, other than their very similar sounds. Sheehan's Attitude bass has the pickups placed in nearly exact "Ric" positions, the TB member's P-bass has the pickups in nearly "Ric" positions. They both have the same tonal characteristics as Geddy's Ric tones from the 70's.

My wife and I were just sortof marveling over that earlier this afternoon. We A/B'd a Niacin song with a few sections of the song 2112 ... almost indistinguishable.

I think the pickup type is actually more about nuance and refinement, but I think that using the "fret 24" neck pickup and splitting "fret 24" and "fret 36" positions with the other pickup is actually what gets you closer to ~that sound~ than actual pickup type.

If you look at a Ric and a P, the Ric's "bridge" pickup is nearly in the same relative location as the P-bass's pickups are (between F24 and F36). Add the "F24" pickup to the P and the sound is very very close to a Ric.

Once placement is accomplished then pickup type selection caps it off. But if you do it the other way, and just try to use pickup types but in the wrong places, you're NEVER gonna get there. Go the other way around, place pretty much any decent pickups in the right places and you're pretty much in Ricville.

All of that having been said I think pickup placement is priority A, and pickup type is secondary. Once the placement is correct then you can fine tune things by choosing whatever it is a person feels is the best set of pickups to suit their needs.

But without that placement thing, it's all gonna go nowhere fast.

What do I know? Um .... nothing really. Just observing.

If I'm understanding you correctly the J pup in my bass is almost in the Ric bridge position, right? Theoretically, then, if I put a Ric neck pup in the 24th fret position I should be able to get Ric-like tones using those two pickups. How would I know what 24th fret and 36th fret positions are?

Would something like this work?


This pickup comes in 10K and 15K versions, and I would think the 15k version would be hot enough to allow me to hide it under my pickguard in the Ric spot and still get good volume from it.

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by ClassicAmps

As said, YMMV.

There are many musicians who hear the same sound when using different pickups. Fortunately (unfortunately?) most my customers can hear these differences, makes winding pickups a challenge at times.

It's all good, though, I'm certainly not here to argue but just chimed in about the Ric-in-the-PBass thing since I have one and can hear the difference. My Pbass doesn't sound like a Ric, but it sounds good and can get a Ric-like groove going on.

The Ric-like groove is what I'm shooting for! I just have real estate a wastin' between my J neck pup and the neck.

[Flux Jetson]

The easiest way to find F24 and F36 is with a measuring tape.

On a 34" scale, F12 = 17" (that's half ot the scale)

The next "halfing" is at 25.5" from the nut, that would be where Fret 24 is.

The next "halfing" is at 29.75" from the nut. That would be where Fret 36 would be.

One way to kind of demonstrate that is just use a slide. Get something like a deep socket, or any type of hard ~thing~ that can be used as a slide, like for playing slide guitar. Now, play an open (unfretted) note, then slide up to F12 ... hear how that is one octave higher than ~open~? Slide higher up until you hear 2-octaves above open, that is where F24 is. Keep sliding up until you hit 3-octaves above open, that is where F36 would be.

So you can determine those pickup locales that way as well. Use tape to mark their positions.

~Between F24 and F36 is right there .. well .... between F24 and F36 .. haahaa! If you'll note, your P bass pickups are located in that ~in-between~ area. It doesn't have to be right on the atom perfect, you'll notice the coils on certain basses don't precisely line up with these postions, close enough is good enough.

Here's some measurements I recorded a while ago, I didn't use the nut as the zero I used the bridge saddles so these dimensions are bassackwards from what I said above. But you'll see the similarities and postions.

RICKENBACKER 4001-4003 (33.25" scale):

Bridge to Bridge pickup = 4.25".
Bridge to Neck pickup = 8.25".

33.25" scale - divisions:
1-oct = 16.625"
2-oct = 8.3125"
3-oct = 4.15625"
4-oct = 2.078125"

(so you can see the bridge pickup is placed very close to where F36 would be, and the neck pickup is placed very close to where F24 would be. Close enough to call it "on it".)

*********************
P-BASS (34" scale):

Bridge to E/A pickup = 6.75"
Bridge to D/G pickup = 5.25"
(Mathematical Average = exactly 6.00" - roughly splitting 2nd and 3rd octave, or said another way -- splitting F24 and F36 to get that same sound as the Ric but only using one pickup.)

34" scale - divisions:
1-oct = 17.00"
2-oct = 8.5"
3-oct = 4.25"
4-oct = 2.125"
********************

J-BASS:

Bridge to Bridge pickup = 2.5"
Bridge to Neck pickup = 6.125" - about the same as Pbass.

34" scale - divisions:
1-oct = 17.00"
2-oct = 8.5"
3-oct = 4.25"
4-oct = 2.125"

So, with the 3-pickup setup, even though your center pickup isn't exactly the same as the Ric's bridge pickup (Ric is nearly right-on the 36th fret, the P and J are ~splitting~ F36 and F24) it is ok. The important one is that "F24" pickup that helps add the missing quality needed for Ric sounds.

So in English. The Ric hits F24 and F36 nearly exactly. A Pbass is right in between them, I think that's why the P and the Ric sound so close tonally speaking. Both basses are picking up the sound that the string are making in the same area. Ric does it with two pickups, hitting the F24 and F36 nearly right on the dot. Fender (P) is hitting the exact same region, but doing it with one pickup by putting it right in between the two spots (the P pickup is located right in between the two Ric pickups).

Add the F24 pickup to the P and the tone becomes very close to the Ric.

Whew!

Just to get it said, I am not any kind of luthier or bass expert. These are just my own obvservations made with my eyes and my ears.

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

The easiest way to find F24 and F36 is with a measuring tape.

On a 34" scale, F12 = 17" (that's half ot the scale)

The next "halfing" is at 25.5" from the nut, that would be where Fret 24 is.

The next "halfing" is at 29.75" from the nut. That would be where Fret 36 would be.

One way to kind of demonstrate that is just use a slide. Get something like a deep socket, or any type of hard ~thing~ that can be used as a slide, like for playing slide guitar. Now, play an open (unfretted) note, then slide up to F12 ... hear how that is one octave higher than ~open~? Slide higher up until you hear 2-octaves above open, that is where F24 is. Keep sliding up until you hit 3-octaves above open, that is where F36 would be.

So you can determine those pickup locales that way as well. Use tape to mark their positions.

~Between F24 and F36 is right there .. well .... between F24 and F36 .. haahaa! If you'll note, your P bass pickups are located in that ~in-between~ area. It doesn't have to be right on the atom perfect, you'll notice the coils on certain basses don't precisely line up with these postions, close enough is good enough.

Here's some measurements I recorded a while ago, I didn't use the nut as the zero I used the bridge saddles so these dimensions are bassackwards from what I said above. But you'll see the similarities and postions.

RICKENBACKER 4001-4003 (33.25" scale):

Bridge to Bridge pickup = 4.25".
Bridge to Neck pickup = 8.25".

33.25" scale - divisions:
1-oct = 16.625"
2-oct = 8.3125"
3-oct = 4.15625"
4-oct = 2.078125"

(so you can see the bridge pickup is placed very close to where F36 would be, and the neck pickup is placed very close to where F24 would be. Close enough to call it "on it".)

*********************
P-BASS (34" scale):

Bridge to E/A pickup = 6.75"
Bridge to D/G pickup = 5.25"
(Mathematical Average = exactly 6.00" - roughly splitting 2nd and 3rd octave, or said another way -- splitting F24 and F36 to get that same sound as the Ric but only using one pickup.)

34" scale - divisions:
1-oct = 17.00"
2-oct = 8.5"
3-oct = 4.25"
4-oct = 2.125"
********************

J-BASS:

Bridge to Bridge pickup = 2.5"
Bridge to Neck pickup = 6.125" - about the same as Pbass.

34" scale - divisions:
1-oct = 17.00"
2-oct = 8.5"
3-oct = 4.25"
4-oct = 2.125"

So, with the 3-pickup setup, even though your center pickup isn't exactly the same as the Ric's bridge pickup (Ric is nearly right-on the 36th fret, the P and J are ~splitting~ F36 and F24) it is ok. The important one is that "F24" pickup that helps add the missing quality needed for Ric sounds.

So in English. The Ric hits F24 and F36 nearly exactly. A Pbass is right in between them, I think that's why the P and the Ric sound so close tonally speaking. Both basses are picking up the sound that the string are making in the same area. Ric does it with two pickups, hitting the F24 and F36 nearly right on the dot. Fender (P) is hitting the exact same region, but doing it with one pickup by putting it right in between the two spots (the P pickup is located right in between the two Ric pickups).

Add the F24 pickup to the P and the tone becomes very close to the Ric.

Whew!

Just to get it said, I am not any kind of luthier or bass expert. These are just my own obvservations made with my eyes and my ears.

This needs to be a sticky! Bass mathematics! Thanks! Do you think that high power rail guitar pup would fit the bill under the pickguard in the 24 spot or do I need to go for a Ric replacement pickup?

[fourstringbliss]

What about another Jazz pup like that other guy did, just not under the pickguard but routed in? The pups in my bass are ceramic magnet jobbies and are fairly aggressive sounding because of that, plus, I use 500k pots.

I could install another SX Jazz neck pup at the 24th fret location, routing it in like a normal one. I'm thinking that it wouldn't be such a visual mishmash - MM/J/J vs. MM/J/Ric. Black/black/black vs. black/black/chrome.

[Flux Jetson]

Well, here's where my experience falls on it's face. I can't help you out with the ~pickup type~ selections. I just don't have the experience with different pickups in that application to help you out. I can say that I've had this same discussion with numerous people and I've had many different *solutions* given to me as far as pickup type goes. So it seems like it comes down to personal preference.

There's so many variables in bass guitars and bass guitar rigs that I do not think there is any *one* silver bullet pickup or pickup combo. What works perfect for one bass rig/bass guitar/bass player may be total crap for the next player/rig/bass combo.

I mean, look at the variables in the examples that have been presented in just this thread alone! Sheehan uses a mudbucker at F24 that is something like what Gibson used in the EBO bass, Geddy (said he) used a stock Ric pickup, that TB member used some type of Jazz bass pickup at F24, then some other poster in this thread said it had to be some other pickup. And a very trusted member told me of this really slim guitar pickup that would possibly fit without doing any routing would work (great idea for testing things out, no hackage on the bass body needed for experiments! Just stick the pickup down with perhaps 2-sided tape or something to test out some positions without taking a router to the bass first.) And I've had other people tell me this one or that one are Thuh Bawlz.

This thread is dedicated to 3-pickup basses - Show us your 3 pickup basses! - and there are a fistfull of different answers in there too!

So, sadly I'm afraid all I can say is *I don't know*.

Sorry....

[Doner Designs]

Nice. You might want to post this in the three pickup thread and also browsing that thread may give you some idears.

Originally Posted by ClassicAmps

I'd have to disagree with that, oh sure placement is a big thing but the Ric (bridge, and hi-gain) tone is not an alnico pole thing, it's steel rivets with an bottom-mounted magnet, a lot fuller sound with th steel in the mixture (without the "glass") than a Jazz pickup tone.
(except the toaster, that is)

Just my opinion, YMMV.



Wish mine had a rosewood fretboard like yours.

Anyway, this pic is old but currently I've got an "experimental" pickup in that bridge pickup position where the jazz pickup was in this pic, it's a Ric bridge (coil) under a jazz cover, it sounds much different than the alnico twin-pole jazz pickups, I've got to work out a couple things but I'll post a pic when it's done.

[Doner Designs]

I don't think a 5 way switch is the way to go on these unless all 3 pickups are identical. Three volumes seems to be the consensus view for blending different pickup types.

Originally Posted by Strat Hater

I want to do this myself. Do you have any sound samples and did you just use the stock cap or is that Ric valued as well?