A Rick 4003 neck pickup on a P Bass?

[gt96g]

If I ever did a build I would like to do a p or jazz bass but with a complete Rickenbacker pickup set. I have seen a few maple p and j bodies from warmoth. I have always loved the sound of ricks I just don't care for the aesthetics or ergonomics. A fender style instrument that could approximate the rick sound would be a great bass IMO

[ClassicAmps]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

...I think that's why the P and the Ric sound so close tonally speaking...

With all due respect, I'd have to disagree with that. IMHO a PBass, JBass, and a Ric bass don't sound anything alike, but that's just my opinion.

When you find the correct position, then you need to employ the appropriate pickup, chucking any-old-thang in there (IMHO) wont get the critical ear there, YMMV.

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

...once that bass is interjected into a mix with other instruments it would sound nearly indistinguishable from a Ric. The audience would certainly never know the difference...

Isolated Tom Sawyer bass track ... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BlGibhuobrM

I guess we have a fundamental different view, but that is the beautiful thing about the internet isn't it?

Anyway, compare the isolated track you linked to with this isolated track: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GRjAgl1dQBk

Doesn't even sound close IMHO.

Originally Posted by Doner Designs

Nice. You might want to post this in the three pickup thread and also browsing that thread may give you some idears.

What ideas do you mean Steve?
(BTW, love that USAF bass, nice theme and execution)

Idea's I've got up the wazzooo, what I lack is (spare) time to experiment and prototype my ideas.

[primussucks9126]

I generally agree with Flux. That's what I did with my Jaguar. I had Fralin split single coil P-bass pickups installed in the Ric locations (plus one in the 70s J bass spot). It also has a maple body and neck, and a finished fretboard.

The results?

I think it sounds LIKE a Ric. I have a 4003. The Jag is in the exact same ballpark, but there are differences which can probably be attributed to many things (they sound different acoustically, which is pretty important in determining what they sound like plugged in, IMO). The Jag is brighter, more crisp, and more defined. The Ric is fantastic, but almost sounds muddy when compared to the Jag. I love both equally for different things, even if they do sound very similar (to me)

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by ClassicAmps

With all due respect, I'd have to disagree with that. IMHO a PBass, a JBass, and a Ric bass don't sound anything alike, but that's just my opinion.

Not anything alike? Hmm .. well, to each his druthers.

Can you tell the difference between the J and the Ric on Rush's Moving Pictures album? I mean, Tom Sawyer is an obvious ~gimme~ (it's his J) but can you spot which other songs are the J and which are the Ric? And on their live album "Different Stages" on Disk 3 which was a concert taped from a 1978 performance in London, that Ric sounds quite a bit like his J does, almost to the point that you can't tell them apart in certain sections (like on Bastille Day, it's nearly impossible to tell if he's using the Ric or the J). Or what of early live Rush when Geddy was using that teardrop P? I mean c'mon, you gotta at least admit they have a certain similar tonal twang to them. Listen to early Kansas, like Miracles Out Of Nowhere, that type of stuff. Dave Hope used a P in those recordings, while it isn't ~exactly~ like a Ric the two tones do have a certain familiarity between them that is unique to them both.

Originally Posted by ClassicAmps

When you find the correct position, then you need to employ the appropriate pickup, chucking any-old-thang in there (IMHO) wont get the critical ear there, YMMV.

Well, I don't think anyone said anything like putting "any old thang" in there. What I said was that there are many opinions about what will sound best, obviously .. I mean here's yours! Yet one more added to the pile.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by gt96g

If I ever did a build I would like to do a p or jazz bass but with a complete Rickenbacker pickup set. I have seen a few maple p and j bodies from warmoth. I have always loved the sound of ricks I just don't care for the aesthetics or ergonomics. A fender style instrument that could approximate the rick sound would be a great bass IMO

BADDA - FRIGGIN - BING!

Yuppity Yup Yup!

I owned a 4003 for about three months in 2003. Much as I wanted to love it, I could just never really make friends with it's fit and feel. It had many pointy/sharpy/corners-edges that just seemed to nag at me. I just couldn't get that thing to feel good when I played it, like trying to snuggle up to a tool box or a trying to play a garden rake. So, as much as I hated to, I sold it. I bought it brand new from Ed Roman guitars for $1170 shipped (it was a Mapleglo model), sold it three months later on Ebay for $1400 plus shipping.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

I generally agree with Flux. That's what I did with my Jaguar. I had Fralin split single coil P-bass pickups installed in the Ric locations (plus one in the 70s J bass spot). It also has a maple body and neck, and a finished fretboard.

The results?

I think it sounds LIKE a Ric. I have a 4003. The Jag is in the exact same ballpark, but there are differences which can probably be attributed to many things (they sound different acoustically, which is pretty important in determining what they sound like plugged in, IMO). The Jag is brighter, more crisp, and more defined. The Ric is fantastic, but almost sounds muddy when compared to the Jag. I love both equally for different things, even if they do sound very similar (to me)

HOLY CATS that thing is friggin GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!

I've been thinking about using a Jaguar as the basis for my final body shape selection after I prototype the X-Bass project. I think this example may have pushed me over the top on that decision! I had intended on using a Warmoth Explorer body shape, but since Gibson leveled a lawsuit on body vendors the Explorer body is no longer available from Warmoth. http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Bodies...rect.aspx?i=27 ... That said I've been struggling with which body shape to go with. I think you've helped me with that here! Plenty of switch and knob plates, great ergonomic look, nice rounded shape (quite ~female~ looking!).

And it looks like you nailed the pickup placement as well!

Nice NICE job, dude! You REALLY need to post this in this thread here ... Show us your 3 pickup basses! .. it's a perfect fit!

BTW, is that a Warmoth or other aftermarket body and/or neck? It has that Warmoth paintjob look and it also has that body and forearm contour look about it (I've not seen many ~real~ Jaguars so I wouldn't really know the difference if someone whacked me over the head with the real-deal). I am a Warmoth user, built eleven Warmoths to date. My favorite guitar ever is a Warmoth construct.

[ClassicAmps]

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

I generally agree with Flux. That's what I did with my Jaguar. I had Fralin split single coil P-bass pickups installed in the Ric locations (plus one in the 70s J bass spot). It also has a maple body and neck, and a finished fretboard.

The results?

I think it sounds LIKE a Ric. I have a 4003. The Jag is in the exact same ballpark, but there are differences which can probably be attributed to many things (they sound different acoustically, which is pretty important in determining what they sound like plugged in, IMO). The Jag is brighter, more crisp, and more defined. The Ric is fantastic, but almost sounds muddy when compared to the Jag. I love both equally for different things, even if they do sound very similar (to me)
[/IMG]

Nice bass BTW, interesting blue-burst. What did you use to finish the neck?
(blue is my favorite color)

The "brightness" you're mainly attributing to the guitar could be being highlighted by the alnico pole pickups, which are indeed noticably brighter sounding than steel pole Ric pickups which have a fuller/rounder sound. When you have steel in a pickup it changes the character of the tone (and inductance, etc).

If you could do an A/B (swap-for-swap) as if you were able to drop a Ric pickup into that position (physically) you would definately notice less brightness. In guitars it's called a "glass" or "brittle" tone, in a bass it brings in a more honkey-tonk piano type sound. I've done that experiment myself when I built a ric pickup into a JBass plastic cover for my Pbass and did the A/B swap test.

Nevertheless, as has been said earlier in this thread, once one gets that neck pickup in there, and the ablility to access it in conjuction with a bridge pickup, one tends to start getting sound more "Ric-like" sound than w/o it.

[ClassicAmps]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

Not anything alike? Hmm .. well, to each his druthers.

...you gotta at least admit they have a certain similar tonal twang to them...

Well said, and yes indeed, all three are indeed similar tones, ....they are bass guitars.

Beyond the general terminology I personally don't think they sound the same, but I'll just finish with that and let this rest, lest it devolves into some kind of argument thing, peace out Flux.

[primussucks9126]

Originally Posted by Flux Jetson

BTW, is that a Warmoth or other aftermarket body and/or neck? It has that Warmoth paintjob look and it also has that body and forearm contour look about it (I've not seen many ~real~ Jaguars so I wouldn't really know the difference if someone whacked me over the head with the real-deal). I am a Warmoth user, built eleven Warmoths to date. My favorite guitar ever is a Warmoth construct.

They're both Warmoth parts, finished and assembled (with the body heavily reshaped) by John Kallas.

Hipshot Brass A bridge, J neck with an ebony fretboard and stainless steel vintage style frets. I contacted Eric Wylie at Warmoth to get the locations just right.

If I could do it all over again, I would get a P-bass nut on the neck, and probably have the 3rd pickup in between the neck and middle ones. I don't use the bridge much. Kinda sounds like a moo cow to me when combined with the neck pickup (I know that's a terrible description, but it makes sense to me)

Years ago when all I had was my Geddy Lee Jazz, I had that idea to add 2 pickups in ric locations (had no idea about Spock's Beard's bassist doing that! Awesome!), so this was a way make that dream a reality, but I thought the 4 pickups would be too cluttered.

Originally Posted by ClassicAmps

Nice bass BTW, interesting blue-burst. What did you use to finish the neck?
(blue is my favorite color)

The "brightness" you're mainly attributing to the guitar could be being highlighted by the alnico pole pickups, which are indeed noticably brighter sounding than steel pole Ric pickups which have a fuller/rounder sound. When you have steel in a pickup it changes the character of the tone (and inductance, etc).

If you could do an A/B (swap-for-swap) as if you were able to drop a Ric pickup into that position (physically) you would definately notice less brightness. In guitars it's called a "glass" or "brittle" tone, in a bass it brings in a more honkey-tonk piano type sound. I've done that experiment myself when I built a ric pickup into a JBass plastic cover for my Pbass and did the A/B swap test.

Nevertheless, as has been said earlier in this thread, once one gets that neck pickup in there, and the ablility to access it in conjuction with a bridge pickup, one tends to start getting sound more "Ric-like" sound than w/o it.

Not doubting you at all. Sounds like it would make an interesting experiment. The Jag is also HEAVY. I think it's like 14-15 pounds, where the Ric is about 10-11. I think that has a bit to do with it as well.


Thanks for the compliments on the bass, guys!

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

I generally agree with Flux. That's what I did with my Jaguar. I had Fralin split single coil P-bass pickups installed in the Ric locations (plus one in the 70s J bass spot). It also has a maple body and neck, and a finished fretboard.

The results?

I think it sounds LIKE a Ric. I have a 4003. The Jag is in the exact same ballpark, but there are differences which can probably be attributed to many things (they sound different acoustically, which is pretty important in determining what they sound like plugged in, IMO). The Jag is brighter, more crisp, and more defined. The Ric is fantastic, but almost sounds muddy when compared to the Jag. I love both equally for different things, even if they do sound very similar (to me)

Woops! Forgive me, I've discovered that Warmoth doesn't even offer a Jaguar bass ... they have a Jazzmaster body that they have a Jag-like pickguard available for, has the control plates and so on. DOH!

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

They're both Warmoth parts, finished and assembled (with the body heavily reshaped) by John Kallas.

Hipshot Brass A bridge, J neck with an ebony fretboard and stainless steel vintage style frets. I contacted Eric Wylie at Warmoth to get the locations just right.

If I could do it all over again, I would get a P-bass nut on the neck, and probably have the 3rd pickup in between the neck and middle ones. I don't use the bridge much. Kinda sounds like a moo cow to me when combined with the neck pickup (I know that's a terrible description, but it makes sense to me)

Years ago when all I had was my Geddy Lee Jazz, I had that idea to add 2 pickups in ric locations (had no idea about Spock's Beard's bassist doing that! Awesome!), so this was a way make that dream a reality, but I thought the 4 pickups would be too cluttered.



Not doubting you at all. Sounds like it would make an interesting experiment. The Jag is also HEAVY. I think it's like 14-15 pounds, where the Ric is about 10-11. I think that has a bit to do with it as well.


Thanks for the compliments on the bass, guys!

OK so wait, It actually IS a Warmoth? Huh. I wonder what body that is then? Now that I look at it better, it looks like a Warmoth JAZZMASTER Bass IV body.

http://www.warmoth.com/Bass/Body/JazzmasterBassIV/

But where did you get that pickguard and those bitchen chromed control plates at?

Warmoth is really cool to work with. I've worked with SPIKE there on my last eleven Warmoths.

[primussucks9126]

That's precisely what it is. John did a lot of reshaping of the body. He felt that the Warmoth shape doesn't really look much like a Jag. I'm not sure if I would have been less happy with the standard shape, but I certainly loved the way this came out.

John also cut the pickguard by hand, and sourced the chrome plates (I might be wrong, but I think they're the same ones that go on the Jag guitar.

If you'd like, I could maybe trace and scan my guard for you, and you can edit the pickup routes as they apply to you.

I could also attempt to get some sound clips in the near future. Maybe A/Bing the Jag with my 4003

[fourstringbliss]

Sounds clips are definitely in order to settle the tone issue.

[M.R. Ogle]

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

Yow! I wanna play that! Very interesting!

[primussucks9126]

Originally Posted by fourstringbliss

Sounds clips are definitely in order to settle the tone issue.

Give me a few days and try and work a few things out for you. Just a warning: The Jag has DR SS Lo-Riders that have been on it since I got it in late october, and the 4003 has Rotos that have been on it for a few weeks. And still, the Jag manages to be brighter and more crisp, but I'll let the clips do the talking when I finish them.

Originally Posted by M.R. Ogle

Yow! I wanna play that! Very interesting!

If you ever find yourself in my neck of the woods, let me know!

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

That's precisely what it is. John did a lot of reshaping of the body. He felt that the Warmoth shape doesn't really look much like a Jag. I'm not sure if I would have been less happy with the standard shape, but I certainly loved the way this came out.

John also cut the pickguard by hand, and sourced the chrome plates (I might be wrong, but I think they're the same ones that go on the Jag guitar.

If you'd like, I could maybe trace and scan my guard for you, and you can edit the pickup routes as they apply to you.

I could also attempt to get some sound clips in the near future. Maybe A/Bing the Jag with my 4003

I just figured out that your builder probably DID use ~guitar~ parts, the Jag control plates look pretty much identical to those on your bass.

http://www.warmoth.com/Neck-Control-Plates-C72.aspx

He may have even used a guitar-Jag pickguard as something to start out with. Lovely idea!

http://www.warmoth.com/Pickguard/JaguarPickguard.aspx

How much hassle would it be for you to actually do that pickguard tracing deal you mentioned? I'd SUPER appreciate that! But I don't want you to have to take your bass apart or whatever to get it done!!! Ok?

Also, how's the neck dive sitch with that body style? The J-bass is already bad enough, I certainy don't need it to be any worse than it is! I plan on using lighter tuning machines than the stock Fender/Squier ones on my completed X-Bass. That will help a good deal.

Thanks a LOT for all the help you've been throwing out there!

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by fourstringbliss

Sounds clips are definitely in order to settle the tone issue.

Totally.

[Flux Jetson]

Originally Posted by ClassicAmps

Well said, and yes indeed, all three are indeed similar tones, ....they are bass guitars.

Beyond the general terminology I personally don't think they sound the same, but I'll just finish with that and let this rest, lest it devolves into some kind of argument thing, peace out Flux.

Yo man, everyone is allowed their own ideas, it's all good. I try like heck to maintane DISCUSSIONS, and depend on the other party's maturity to keep things civil. I didn't smell a fight coming on at all. Just tossed some of the things that make me feel differently than you do about this. As long as one person's efforts to explain their point of view doesn't include being disrespectful of another person by implying lesser intelligence, or saying stuff like "I'm right and you're just stupid!", I'm usually fine with differing and opposing points of view.

I think it all comes down to an issue of degree. How ~much~ alike are certain things. Some people are more tolerant of a lesser degree of similarity than others. When these comparisons break down to o-scope readings and frequency analyzer results, then these types of discussions have lost all integrity. What a machine says about a certain tone, when deciding whether it sounds good or not, is useless.

Comes down to you having a more refined ear and a greater discretionary sense of taste than I do. It really is that simple.

There are wine connoiseurs, and there are wine drinkers. Me? I'm just a drunk. (not literally, just making a point).

[primussucks9126]

It's not a big deal at all. Nothing is actually mounted on the guard itself, so it's just a matter of unscrewing it and tracing it on a piece of paper.

I don't notice any neck dive, but I NEVER notice neck dive. I'll hang it over my shoulder and get back to you. I just played my second gig with it (lots of rehearsals) and It was never a problem. I was reluctant to gig with it because I thought having 15 pounds on my shoulder for 2 hours would be murder, but I actually found it to be not a very big deal. I've got Hipshot Ultralite Lollipop style tuners on it.

The Body alone weighed in at about 7lbs (maple is heavy, and the Jag is a little bit thicker than a Ric if I remember correctly). That was before paint and hardware, so that also helps keep the neck dive to a minimum.

I'll do my best to get the clips ASAP

[fourstringbliss]

Originally Posted by primussucks9126

I'll do my best to get the clips ASAP

Thanks!