Tone on Custom Pavel Jazz ..KJung/Vic HELP!!!

MikeXbass · #1 11-14-2009, 12:08 PM

I have a Custom built Pavel Jazz Pro Vintage made by Luthier Pavel de la Fuente.

Everything on the bass is PERFECT except ive had issues with the TONE since day one...

This is the setup:

Flame Maple Top
Alder Back
Hard Rock necck
Rosewood FB
70's spacing
Aggie OBP-2

originally came with NJ5 but the response was VERY bad..could have been a bad set because i have a set of Nords on my 77 Jazz and they SING...

regardless Pavel decided to swap them out for me and had some Ultra Jazz, so he put those in...

I get the bass back and the response is LIGHTYEARS better...BUT its still not the tone i am lookin for..

I consider my taste for my tone to be more of a passive tone...I LOVE MY old Fenders and i am in search of an AC..which ive heard is the HOLY GRAIL of old fender tone..

The Pavel is great for Slap stuff but i get lost in the mix...i depend on the mid section to get me out of the mush of ELECTRIC GTR..and its simply not there...even with the TONE HAMMER mids turned up...Another small issue right now is if i turn up the LOWS just a pinch...its overbearing..very very weird ...clearly something is not right..

So, my only other idea was to install the OBP-3 and try the Fralins..which i know are not heavy lows..but GREAT mids and highs..
I even spoke with Jimmy Coppolo about sending my bass to have him install his Pre and Pups...but he said it might be an issue of WOODS more than electronics..

Any help from JAZZ EXPERTS would be greatly apreciated...

OrionManMatt said i should ask KJung and Vic...
I greatly appreciate any help..its awesome being a part of such an insightful community..

Sincerely,
Mike X

MikeXbass · #2 11-14-2009, 05:35 PM

I know this thread may have been specific as to who i asked for...but please

feel free to chime in opinions here...:-)
just tryin to get my issue some advice..
hahaha:-)

Mike X

Lorenzini · #3 11-14-2009, 06:13 PM

I'm going to jump out on a limb and say it's because of the alder body, rosewood fingerboard. Also, is it chambered or anything?

narud · #4 11-14-2009, 06:20 PM

the ag pre and overbearing boost is a known issue with that pre. not much useable range. some love it, others dont.

dimarzio ultra jazz and getting lost in the mix? not a surprise either.

i dont think the woods in your bass are the problem. id imagine jimmy's really busy right now and just doesnt want to do it if he didnt even give you a price quote.

if you like the way your bass plays, imo the right electronics will get you what you want.

whats the fretboard radius? maybe that was a cause of the response issues.

carey makes a set of of "70's wind" pickups that uses enamel coated wire rather than heavy formvar and whatever other changes he made. id recommend a set of those and his 2 band pre with a passive tone control. im really impressed with his setup. if your stuck on coppolo, ive got an ac pre ill sell you if you want it.

MikeXbass · #5 11-15-2009, 12:14 AM

@Lorenzini...yes i believe the body is chambered

@Narud...

sell me the ENTIRE AC...hahaha..

thats really what im after...i had a deal goin and decided to wait..kinda kickin myself for that...but Only God knows...

so back to the issue at hand....i actually did get a quote from Jimmy...but i know he IS busy...he just said he would hate for me to send my bass and in the end not have the RESULTS im lookin for...

The Luthier said he has some 70s winding pups on order..and would send me a set to compare...

truth be told...the Tone im lookin for is a more Mellow passive tone...

any ideas on making an overhaul and making it Passive
btw...PM me about your AC pre...just to have an idea

Thanks
Mike X

narud · #6 11-15-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeXbass

@Lorenzini...yes i believe the body is chambered

@Narud...

sell me the ENTIRE AC...hahaha..

thats really what im after...i had a deal goin and decided to wait..kinda kickin myself for that...but Only God knows...

so back to the issue at hand....i actually did get a quote from Jimmy...but i know he IS busy...he just said he would hate for me to send my bass and in the end not have the RESULTS im lookin for...

The Luthier said he has some 70s winding pups on order..and would send me a set to compare...

truth be told...the Tone im lookin for is a more Mellow passive tone...

any ideas on making an overhaul and making it Passive
btw...PM me about your AC pre...just to have an idea

Thanks
Mike X

if you want a mellower tone you have to get the ag out of there. whether you go passive or not is a different story.

do you have any clips? im kind of surprised to hear he's chambering alder. id like to hear how much thats affecting the tone. unless its adding a ton of air to the sound, you should be able to do anything you want with it if you get the right guts. at the level, theres no real magic to anyones alder and rosewood.

one thing to consider is carey will custom wind you a set of pickups that will work best in that bass if you can articulate what you need. i think larry at aero would do the same.

SGD Lutherie · #7 11-15-2009, 12:18 PM

Another thing... brand new basses often sound a bit on the tight side. After you have them strung up a while and play them, they mellow out and warm up a bit.

What are you looking for, more mids?

MikeXbass · #8 11-15-2009, 01:58 PM

Just a more balanced tone...

Here at Lakewood it sounds perfect but I think I could play ANYTHING
and it would sound killer...

I feel the UJ are already scooped then if I add some low end
it gets buried even more..

So Carey has the pickups and a pre or what
other options do I have?

THANKS AGAIN
Mike X

jazzyitalian · #9 11-15-2009, 02:09 PM

Hey there-

My brother and I make basses similar to the one that you have today. You say you want a more traditional tone and quite honestly the Ultras are about as authentic and vintage sounding as they come. Not withstanding, your lack of satisfaction may rooted in some simple tweek. Possibly a lower or higher cap rating, lower or higher pot rating.

But for what it's worth, we just tried out the Varitone product which is a nice multi-faceted control panel for jazz bass. (They come with the plate and all) It's got some nice features that may very well provide you with the right tone you seek.

This Varitone guy sells his products on eBay I know. Why don't you look this guy up?
Jazz

g4string · #10 11-15-2009, 02:13 PM

I have spoke to Brian @ Best Bass Gear on several occasions regarding the situation you are in ........9x's out of 10 his recommendation is a Glockenklang preamp and set of "Classic Bass" series Bartolini pups. It would be hard for me to explain the results one might expect with this pre/pup combo in writing. So my advice to you would be to give Brian a jingle and speak with him. He will point you in the right direction.....my guess is that it will be towards a Glock pre and some CB Barts

Good luck!!!!!

Edit - I have to agree with an earlier post about the Aggie.....yes, get it out of there!!! The Glock pre is the key I think your bass needs. With all things (tone cntrls) set flat, the Glock pre will sound the same active as it does passive. Plus the I like the way the pre is voiced.....I REALLY REALLY like the treble set @ 18K. It is not harsh at all, nor does it increase harshness as you roll on the knob. The treble knob on the Glock pre should called the "sheen" or "glass" control.....contrary to what you might think, the 18K pot is VERY VERY smooth.

Wilbyman · #11 11-15-2009, 02:22 PM

I would put the chambered alder thing at least partly at fault. I have played/heard some chambered alder Sadowskys and the response it a little bit weird to put it mildly. I will probably get alot of push back on this, but, at least at low volumes, I felt like the lows were loose but overpowering...kind of a cross between a hollowbody and a J-bass, but not in a good way. All basses have SOME channelling for pickup/control routing but I do think too much can have an adverse effect.

I also see your bridge pickup is pretty far back (70's position). I don't know how light the body on your bass is, but I would not be surprised if the bridge pickup position and chambered alder are not playing well together.

narud · #12 11-15-2009, 04:22 PM

the guy talks about loving his old fenders and is considering an ac and theres talk of ultra jazzes being authentic and vintage sounding and recommendations of barts and glock pres. you couldnt get further removed from fender'ville than with all that stuff.

ultajazzes sound like humbuckers. not that thats a bad thing but they dont sound like singles.

glassy pres and fenders dont gel well together. theres a reason guys are using 2 band pres with the centers not being at the extremes in fender style boutiques.

SGD Lutherie · #13 11-15-2009, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narud

ultajazzes sound like humbuckers. not that thats a bad thing but they dont sound like singles.

They are split pickups. Humbuckers sound the way they do because there is two coils sensing the strings, and that reinforces the lows and mids and attenuates the top end slightly. That's like the jazz pickups I make.

Split pickups have only one coil sensing each string, so they are really two single coil pickups next to each other, not really a like a humbucker at all.

Like this Nordstrand

So if anything, they sound like over wound single coils, not like humbuckers.

The tone is slightly different because the coil sizes are different. Also Nordstrand makes very traditional sounding split Jazz pickups. DiMarzio Ultras aren't really supposed to sound traditional, since they have ceramic magnets charging alnico poles.

The Area J's are supposed to sound more like the real thing.

Jim C · #14 11-15-2009, 05:47 PM

Why not try some single coil, standard J style pickups and passive electronics
This would answer the question about woods and chambering and would be inexpensive to try

narud · #15 11-15-2009, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

They are split pickups. Humbuckers sound the way they do because there is two coils sensing the strings, and that reinforces the lows and mids and attenuates the top end slightly. That's like the jazz pickups I make.

Split pickups have only one coil sensing each string, so they are really two single coil pickups next to each other, not really a like a humbucker at all.

Like this Nordstrand

So if anything, they sound like over wound single coils, not like humbuckers.

The tone is slightly different because the coil sizes are different. Also Nordstrand makes very traditional sounding split Jazz pickups. DiMarzio Ultras aren't really supposed to sound traditional, since they have ceramic magnets charging alnico poles.

The Area J's are supposed to sound more like the real thing.

ok, a split humbucker

its two coils wired in series and doesnt hum.

the narrow aperture dual coil humbucker youre making is pretty unique in j land, but i havent heard of a split coil pickup not being referred to as a humbucker, whether its a p bass pickup or a duncan or emg soapbar, until now.

MikeXbass · #16 11-15-2009, 06:19 PM

Yeah I am considering it..I thought of Fralins and open to options on controls side..

I have done alot of research AFTER they were installed
and have seen NOTHING but reviews saying they are great for a modern scooped sound
NORD and FRALIN are the options I know..

Back to my Old fenders and my GAS for AC...
Am I on the right track..I just wanna get one in my hands..

narud · #17 11-15-2009, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MikeXbass

Yeah I am considering it..I thought of Fralins and open to options on controls side..

I have done alot of research AFTER they were installed
and have seen NOTHING but reviews saying they are great for a modern scooped sound
NORD and FRALIN are the options I know..

Back to my Old fenders and my GAS for AC...
Am I on the right track..I just wanna get one in my hands..

Guys some people have said maybe the neck pickup is off...
Anyone else see that happening..

With my tone hammer on and the mids cranked..

Literally like 3-4 o clock..and I'm happy..many people might say..
So what's te prob..but I KNOW..I'm compensating and the day come I dot have my
pedal setup..

Kinda like a girl wearing
TIGHT PANTS..looks great and all..but could it be the pants holding it all in place..
Hahaha

For the sake of my example..
I dont wanna be that girl..LOL

ac's are great basses, but i think are getting subject to some serious tb hype. i have a great respect for what he does though. i also am a big fan of his pre and i have two of them.

heres a clip of my fernandes 5 string jazz with aeros and a coppolo outboard. its seen more playing time in the last few months than my fodera did in years.
http://www.4shared.com/file/15290384...fernandes.html

there's stuff out there that will do fender just as well though. i played and posted a big review on carey's new 34" scale nordy and i thought it was a better bass. better more consistent worksmanship and closer to a 70's fender (i played a 70's model). great, great stuff. im just not a fan of his "big" series pickups.

your bass might just be an odd combo of specs though. chambered alder/rosewood with 70's spacing is different to say the least. early 70's alder/rosewood fenders with 70's spacing are my least favorite era of fenders when it comes to tone.

SGD Lutherie · #18 11-15-2009, 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narud

ok, a split humbucker

its two coils wired in series and doesnt hum.

Correct... you can also wire them in parallel.

Quote:

the narrow aperture dual coil humbucker youre making is pretty unique in j land,

I think the only other one is the Joe Barden. But I'm using neodymium magnets and they are voiced differently.

Quote:

but i havent heard of a split coil pickup not being referred to as a humbucker, whether its a p bass pickup or a duncan or emg soapbar, until now.

It's more precisely a hum canceling pickup. Interestingly, in Seth Lover's patent for the humbucker, he also had several split coil designs.

So that's why I pointed out that saying it "sounds like a humbucker" generally implies a dual parallel coil pickup, and not a split coil. And there's a reason for that, which is due to the reinforcement and cancelation of frequencies, because each string is sensed by two coils.

So you should be able to get a split reasonably close to a real Jazz single coil tone. The difference is that it's two smaller coils.

The DiMarzio pickups also use different magnets and poles.

The other two types of hum canceling pickups is the stack, which has the problem of the low frequencies being canceled out, so they are usually over wound to compensate, EMG-j is a stacked pickup, and the sidewinder, which is really the best design for a quiet single coil tone.

Q-Tuners are sidewinders, as was the Gibson Ripper and mudbucker pickups, and the old Bill Lawrence L-250 Strat pickups.

I'm doing a new sidewinder design, and I like the tone it gives. It's bright like a single coil, and does not have the big mid hump you get in parallel coil humbuckers.

narud · #19 11-15-2009, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

So that's why I pointed out that saying it "sounds like a humbucker" generally implies a dual parallel coil pickup, and not a split coil. And there's a reason for that, which is due to the reinforcement and cancelation of frequencies, because each string is sensed by two coils.

well since we're talking jazz basses, i was referring to humbucking jazz pickups which are most commonly splits. should have been clearer though.

i dont think ive heard a split really replicate a good single yet. even the nords are too wide and hifi for my tastes.

OrionManMatt · #20 11-15-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by narud

ac's are great basses, but i think are getting subject to some serious tb hype. i have a great respect for what he does though. i also am a big fan of his pre and i have two of them.

heres a clip of my fernandes 5 string jazz with aeros and a coppolo outboard. its seen more playing time in the last few months than my fodera did in years.
http://www.4shared.com/file/15290384...fernandes.html

there's stuff out there that will do fender just as well though. i played and posted a big review on carey's new 34" scale nordy and i thought it was a better bass. better more consistent worksmanship and closer to a 70's fender (i played a 70's model). great, great stuff. im just not a fan of his "big" series pickups.

your bass might just be an odd combo of specs though. chambered alder/rosewood with 70's spacing is different to say the least. early 70's alder/rosewood fenders with 70's spacing are my least favorite era of fenders when it comes to tone.

That Fernandes sounds delicious, Joe. Dear me. What bass are you using on your fusion stuff? I should try and get some solo clips of my Lakland DJ5 up soon. They have Aeros in there, too.

I haven't heard Mike X's bass in person yet but I've been trying to help him get this sorted out. He's an amazing player and has been a good encouragement to me. Great guy.

I was the one that mentioned to him that I thought the neck pickup might be closer to the neck than I remember on "70s spacing". Is that right? Seems like it would affect the mids some.