Trick out my Fodera

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

I have played Gospel with a Ken Smith, Music Man Stingray H & HH, Spector, Yamaha, Alembic, Peavey, Fender, import MTD, G&L (USA & Tribute) among others. Honestly, I have to agree with Brad in the sense that learning more about Gospel, and listening to more Gospel has done more for my playing than any change of bass.

My current 2008 Fender Jazz V works beautifully. It works well passive, but my Sadowsky preamp gives it a nice modern edge when I want, which is most of the time!

+1 I think the Gospel thing is being interpreted in a number of different ways here.

First, any good player can play any bass in any setting and sound fine. Let's stop talking about that. That's a 'duh'

When someone posts that they want a different sound to their bass, I try to be helpful. My limited experience with Gospel (although it's getting more now that I live in Detroit) is that many of the players and recordings I've heard have a VERY pronounced treble attack, and there is quite a bit of slapping involved. The Ken Smith, MTD's and J Basses that I mostly see these types of players play (either in Detroit at our hangs or on clips) all have a very different, but very present top end... either that Ken Smith 'ping', the crystal clear uber 8K sizzle that the MTD's are capable of, or that more 'Marcus' raw, single coil through preamp lower treble top end that a more J style instrument with single coil pickups provides. Mahogany, rosewood, maple, whatever, there is a 'family' tone center in all of these basses that is identifiable to me.

Most Fodera's I've owned, played or heard aren't really voiced that way, and while you can crank up a tweeter and treble control and put zingy string on them, it's not IMO the same thing. Richard Bona gets a great modern slap tone from his passive Fodera... but he uses a J bass on his recordings where the primary goal is a slap tone or a more aggressive grind and growl.

If we all really think that the bass doesn't matter (and there's a certain truth to this), then we can pretty much get off of TB and play any bass that feels OK. I agree, there are many great players that do just that.

However, if we think that certain basses do have certain inherent tones that allow them to produce a certain 'family of tones' better than others, then it is PERFECTLY reasonable to suggest that maybe, just maybe, one of those instruments might work better to get a certain tone.

My big assumption here is that the OP can play, has thought through this, and is having some of the same issues I had with the Fodera's I've owned and played, since even though I don't play Gospel, I like the bright, modern, tone that many describe as the modern Gospel tone.

There is NOTHING I hate more than putting a new set of stainless steel roundwounds on a bass that, for example, has Bartolini soapbars and a rosewood board, and doing a snap, and hearing NOTHING above 2K No amount of dialing, technique, strings, amps, nothing is going to make a bass with one strong inherent tone (warm, dark, zingy, scooped, mid oriented, huge low end, ebony ping, whatever) sound like another strong inherent voicing. A PBass is not going to sound like a J. A Sadowsky Modern with those big soapbars crammed against the bridge is not going to sound like a J bass, no matter what the technique or amp used IMO and IME!

Again... yes... dear god... yes, I understand a good player can play ANY tune in ANY situation on ANY instrument and not lose the gig or sound bad because his tone is too dark, too bright, too scooped, too midrangy, whatever.

However, there are certain voicings of certain lines of basses that seem to more effortlessly provide a certain family of tones better or worse than others. That's all some of us are talking about here, not that you have to have a 'special bass' for Gospel.

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by KJung

+1 I think the Gospel thing is being interpreted in a number of different ways here.

First, any good player can play any bass in any setting and sound fine. Let's stop talking about that. That's a 'duh'

When someone posts that they want a different sound to their bass, I try to be helpful.

Again, no offense but much of this is like me asking for different color options for sweaters... but you don't know what sweater colors I have. You only assume.

I know you're trying to be helpful... don't you need more to go on than Gospel and Fodera?

My limited experience with Gospel (although it's getting more now that I live in Detroit) is that many of the players and recordings I've heard have a VERY pronounced treble attack, and there is quite a bit of slapping involved. The Ken Smith, MTD's and J Basses that I mostly see these types of players play (either in Detroit at our hangs or on clips) all have a very different, but very present top end... either that Ken Smith 'ping', the crystal clear uber 8K sizzle that the MTD's are capable of, or that more 'Marcus' raw, single coil through preamp lower treble top end that a more J style instrument with single coil pickups provides. Mahogany, rosewood, maple, whatever, there is a 'family' tone center in all of these basses that is identifiable to me.

There can be alot more to Gospel than slap. And sizzle. And the woods you mentioned can yield drastically different results, results that almost anyone can notice.

Most Fodera's I've owned, played or heard aren't really voiced that way, and while you can crank up a tweeter and treble control and put zingy string on them, it's not IMO the same thing. Richard Bona gets a great modern slap tone from his passive Fodera... but he uses a J bass on his recordings where the primary goal is a slap tone or a more aggressive grind and growl.

But Eric is not seeking suggestions on most Foderas... he has a specific one in mind.

If we all really think that the bass doesn't matter (and there's a certain truth to this), then we can pretty much get off of TB and play any bass that feels OK. I agree, there are many great players that do just that.

If we all actually said that the bass doesn't matter...

but we didn't, did we?

However, if we think that certain basses do have certain inherent tones that allow them to produce a certain 'family of tones' better than others, then it is PERFECTLY reasonable to suggest that maybe, just maybe, one of those instruments might work better to get a certain tone.

That's a common thing on TB. Suggest using something entirely different from the basis of the question. It assumes the person asking the question is ignorant of other basses. I have no idea why people do that.

My big assumption here is that the OP can play, has thought through this, and is having some of the same issues I had with the Fodera's I've owned and played, since even though I don't play Gospel, I like the bright, modern, tone that many describe as the modern Gospel tone.

Why assume?

There is NOTHING I hate more than putting a new set of stainless steel roundwounds on a bass that, for example, has Bartolini soapbars and a rosewood board, and doing a snap, and hearing NOTHING above 2K

So what do you think the problem is, the Bart soapbars or the Rosewood neck? Based on my experience I'd say it was the bass you were playing (or something else entirely) because the idea that Bart soapbars or a Rosewood neck on their own or together don't yield highs above 2k is fairly ridiculous IME. Barts not having any highs is one of the more ridiculous myths out there. That would mean my Brubakers, Elricks, Ambush and a host of other bass had no highs.

No amount of dialing, technique, strings, amps, nothing is going to make a bass with one strong inherent tone (warm, dark, zingy, scooped, mid oriented, huge low end, ebony ping, whatever) sound like another strong inherent voicing. A PBass is not going to sound like a J. A Sadowsky Modern with those big soapbars crammed against the bridge is not going to sound like a J bass, no matter what the technique or amp used IMO and IME!

No amount? It couldn't be that you haven't figured out how to do it, it has to be a universal truth?

People love to believe this but rarely put it to a real test. Back to the OP, what is the strong inherent tone of Eric's bass?


I guess you just don't see how much you don't know about this situation.

Again... yes... dear god... yes, I understand a good player can play ANY tune in ANY situation on ANY instrument and not lose the gig or sound bad because his tone is too dark, too bright, too scooped, too midrangy, whatever.

Ken, the only one who keeps contending that seems to be you. That wasn't the point that was being made. The point was that there are sometimes ways to get other sounds from basses than the obvious ones. That is not the same as what you keep repeating.

However, there are certain voicings of certain lines of basses that seem to more effortlessly provide a certain family of tones better or worse than others. That's all some of us are talking about here, not that you have to have a 'special bass' for Gospel.

How about we concentrate on his bass? Just a thought... after all, it's his thread.

[KJung]

I knew my Bartolini comment would get you. Sorry, I couldn't help myself

We will just have to have a gentleman's disagreement on this issue, even though we are probably more in agreement in general than not.

And yes, given my experience with Fodera's and what most mean when talking about Gospel tone, that seemed to me to be enough information to offer some advice

I must admit though... tone controls and amplification and technique do befuddle me, as you suggest. I'll have to somehow generate an interest in this and maybe try to finally figure some of this stuff out! Maybe if I play for a few years and try a bunch of different stuff I'll start understanding some of this stuff. :-)

[mat666]

could you just ask fodera what he suggest since he knows this bass better then anyone hear?

[allexcosta]

Originally Posted by mat666

could you just ask fodera what he suggest since he knows this bass better then anyone hear?

I can hear my Foderas pretty well...

[Brad Johnson]

Originally Posted by KJung

I knew my Bartolini comment would get you. Sorry, I couldn't help myself

We will just have to have a gentleman's disagreement on this issue, even though we are probably more in agreement in general than not.

And yes, given my experience with Fodera's and what most mean when talking about Gospel tone, that seemed to me to be enough information to offer some advice

I must admit though... tone controls and amplification and technique do befuddle me, as you suggest. I'll have to somehow generate an interest in this and maybe try to finally figure some of this stuff out! Maybe if I play for a few years and try a bunch of different stuff I'll start understanding some of this stuff. :-)

The Bart thing didn't get me, while I hoped you were joking, some people actually believe it. I just had a good laugh with some friends locally over that common wisdom... as we played several different brand basses with Barts that didn't seem to have "the problem". The question was asked "Why do people say that?". The most likely answer is that they simply don't know any better.

Tone controls and amplification befuddle most bassists IME. And the simplest thing to do is the one they seem to avoid the most... leave the controls alone.

There's a reason I keep bringing up the player. Like many others, I've figured out just how big an impact simple technique changes have on getting a desired tone. And while many are happy to dismiss that in lieu of finding that one bass with the perfect tone despite whatever you do, many like the instant versatility at their fingertips.

So yeah, we'll agree to disagree... as usual.

[emjazz]

Originally Posted by Brad Johnson

I always dug this clip of Michael... don't know if this is the vibe Eric's going for or trying to get away from :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_z7g...eature=related

Great clip Brad! I've never heard these guys before. The trio clip I found was even better.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by emjazz

Great clip Brad! I've never heard these guys before. The trio clip I found was even better.

Michael Olatuja is great- I have his solo album and he really goes for that playing way behind the beat thing that Pino did so well on D'Angelo's Voodoo. I also have Troy Miller's solo album (the drummer) and it's mostly straight jazz; Olatuja plays on that as well, although it's mostly upright (still great playing though). I've been looking for where that video came from or even an album that it's on, but haven't lucked out yet. Then again, I haven't looked in about half a year, so Google may have the answer now

[Dr. Cheese]

Originally Posted by KJung

+1 I think the Gospel thing is being interpreted in a number of different ways here.

First, any good player can play any bass in any setting and sound fine. Let's stop talking about that. That's a 'duh'

When someone posts that they want a different sound to their bass, I try to be helpful. My limited experience with Gospel (although it's getting more now that I live in Detroit) is that many of the players and recordings I've heard have a VERY pronounced treble attack, and there is quite a bit of slapping involved. The Ken Smith, MTD's and J Basses that I mostly see these types of players play (either in Detroit at our hangs or on clips) all have a very different, but very present top end... either that Ken Smith 'ping', the crystal clear uber 8K sizzle that the MTD's are capable of, or that more 'Marcus' raw, single coil through preamp lower treble top end that a more J style instrument with single coil pickups provides. Mahogany, rosewood, maple, whatever, there is a 'family' tone center in all of these basses that is identifiable to me.

Most Fodera's I've owned, played or heard aren't really voiced that way, and while you can crank up a tweeter and treble control and put zingy string on them, it's not IMO the same thing. Richard Bona gets a great modern slap tone from his passive Fodera... but he uses a J bass on his recordings where the primary goal is a slap tone or a more aggressive grind and growl.

If we all really think that the bass doesn't matter (and there's a certain truth to this), then we can pretty much get off of TB and play any bass that feels OK. I agree, there are many great players that do just that.

However, if we think that certain basses do have certain inherent tones that allow them to produce a certain 'family of tones' better than others, then it is PERFECTLY reasonable to suggest that maybe, just maybe, one of those instruments might work better to get a certain tone.

My big assumption here is that the OP can play, has thought through this, and is having some of the same issues I had with the Fodera's I've owned and played, since even though I don't play Gospel, I like the bright, modern, tone that many describe as the modern Gospel tone.

There is NOTHING I hate more than putting a new set of stainless steel roundwounds on a bass that, for example, has Bartolini soapbars and a rosewood board, and doing a snap, and hearing NOTHING above 2K No amount of dialing, technique, strings, amps, nothing is going to make a bass with one strong inherent tone (warm, dark, zingy, scooped, mid oriented, huge low end, ebony ping, whatever) sound like another strong inherent voicing. A PBass is not going to sound like a J. A Sadowsky Modern with those big soapbars crammed against the bridge is not going to sound like a J bass, no matter what the technique or amp used IMO and IME!

Again... yes... dear god... yes, I understand a good player can play ANY tune in ANY situation on ANY instrument and not lose the gig or sound bad because his tone is too dark, too bright, too scooped, too midrangy, whatever.

However, there are certain voicings of certain lines of basses that seem to more effortlessly provide a certain family of tones better or worse than others. That's all some of us are talking about here, not that you have to have a 'special bass' for Gospel.

Hey Ken, I know you are simply being helpful as you always are. I personally have very little experience with Foderas while you have owned several, so I have to differ to you on them. I just think that Brad did make a good point that sometimes we can blame gear for something that we could do better ourselves. I think that is a always something to consider because even advanced players need to look at what they do sometimes.

[minuseri]

Boy... Where do I begin. Who knew this type of thread would generate so much discussion. Nice!

First gentleman, I consider myself to be an average player. What I lack in musicianship I believe I make up for with a pretty well developed ear and my overall musical experiences (playing various instruments,writing, producing, engineering, etc.). From my earlier playing days which started almost 25 years ago, I have always been drawn to TONE. To this day TONE is probably the most important characteristic I look for when listening to any musician on any instrument.

I am very much aware of the different basses I could use that would, without question give me the tone that many of you have spoken of in this thread (MTD, Smith, Lakland, etc). What sparked me to write this thread was the fact that I have invested a lot of money in these Foderas and I would like to begin to use these basses more in various settings. 4 - 5 years ago I was playing a lot of fusion and less gospel which allowed me to use my Foderas often. Now, I find myself playing mostly gospel and R&B and I still want to use those bases. As I stated in an earlier post, Fodera is not the "be all, end all." I just like the way most of them feel. That said, I have found with all of the Foderas I have owned a great growl and burp vibe. I also appreciate the articulate nature of the bass especially in the upper register. I have struggled with trying to roll in more of a "scooped" EQ pattern where the bottom end is tight and not contrived and the high end is not tingy and almost too thin. So, I am to trying maintain the nice burp that is characteristic in most Foderas while being able to expand to that nice clean "scooped" eq pattern when needed ( I know, Utopian).

I believe that by achieving this type of versatility with the bass, I will be happy with the tone in multiple musical settings.

Again great points for me to consider. I appreciate the feedback from everyone. I would agree with one major point that was made. There are many variables that go into creating tone (strings, amps, cabs, etc). While you can't look at this thing in isolation, you still have to start by eliminating / adding one variable at a time to find out what works well together and what feels and sounds good to your ear.

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Dr. Cheese

Hey Ken, I know you are simply being helpful as you always are. I personally have very little experience with Foderas while you have owned several, so I have to differ to you on them. I just think that Brad did make a good point that sometimes we can blame gear for something that we could do better ourselves. I think that is a always something to consider because even advanced players need to look at what they do sometimes.

+1 all the way, and to the OP (and to Brad). I enjoy the dialectic. Fun discussion, and it's cool to be able to get passionate about this stuff, disagree, and still stay polite, friendly, and friends

To the OP, your description of both your Fodera tone and the tone goal you have is pretty much what I was trying to respond to, given my experience with Fodera's, and also my quest for the tone you are describing. Good luck on the search!

[chicagodoubler]

Congrats to all involved for a heated yet polite discussion!

The "problems" the OP are talking about seem (to me...) easily fixable with eqing. I'm surprised the Pope isn't giving you the control you need.

Do you know any fantastic audio engineers? One of the best things I did years ago for tone was to corner a master over a beer and ask him the specifics of how to eq a bass to achieve different tones- where to scoop for slap and edge, where to boost for sparkle etc... You'd be amazed how many different basses you already own!!!!

If it's a very specific tone you're going for, a good outboard eq is going to give you MUCH more control than your onboard. With the gear you've already got, nobody is going to look at you funny for bringing an Avalon 737 to your gigs...

This in itself is a whole different bag. The topography of onboard eq's is vastly limited by space and power constraints. I'm not saying that you can't achieve studio grade control out of a space the size of a cigarette pack but... you can't.

Once more however, I'm not convinced that there is "one" tone for gospel. That burpy signature Fodera sound can work wonders on some stuff right out of the box.

Another thing I almost hate to bring up is the instant AWE factor of having the Porsche of basses on stage. People are listening so much with their eyes these days. Nobody in their right mind is going to complain about any of your basses on a gospel gig unless you're playing the wrong notes with the wrong feel.

[allexcosta]

I'm convinced that no one can achieve the classic signature "gospel tone" with any bass that's not a bolt-on... Set-neck Foderas would sound great, but wouldn't cope THE "gospel tone", doesn't matter what pickups or preamp you put on them...

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by allexcosta

I'm convinced that no one can achieve the classic signature "gospel tone" with any bass that's not a bolt-on... Set-neck Foderas would sound great, but wouldn't cope THE "gospel tone", doesn't matter what pickups or preamp you put on them...

Are you kidding? THE bass to achieve the "classic" gospel tone for a long time was a neck-through Ken Smith Not to mention Maurice Fitzgerald....I'm guessing you haven't heard him on a Cirrus with Fred Hammond. The guy's still a d-bag for what he did with Brad's bass though

[KJung]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

Are you kidding? THE bass to achieve the "classic" gospel tone for a long time was a neck-through Ken Smith Not to mention Maurice Fitzgerald....I'm guessing you haven't heard him on a Cirrus with Fred Hammond. The guy's still a d-bag for what he did with Brad's bass though

This one I'm staying out of

I do strongly believe that Gospel is best played with a pick though.

[millsbass5]

Who says you have to gut your bass to play gospel and r&b?That's why so many choices are offered to us,the consumer.Don't hop on the gospel/r&b bass bandwagon "play what everybody plays" deal.Be different.Don't try to cop someone tone.Find your own.Peace.

[Brado]

Sorry if I'm repeating anything that's been said already; Having spent sooo much on that Fodera/ not to mention enough knobs & switches to contact the NASA space station...It would make sense to try & find a way to "dial it in" with the Fodera (as is). Any tweeking on the amp? That could be a big piece of the puzzle. If you do want to keep that bass/ swap out pickups & pre; I would recomend Delano Quad Coils & a BEE PRE. The Bee Pre is a monster. Delano pickups are nothing short of stellar.

[allexcosta]

Originally Posted by Bryan R. Tyler

Are you kidding? THE bass to achieve the "classic" gospel tone for a long time was a neck-through Ken Smith Not to mention Maurice Fitzgerald....I'm guessing you haven't heard him on a Cirrus with Fred Hammond. The guy's still a d-bag for what he did with Brad's bass though

Maybe we have different opinions on what's THE classic gospel tone... To me it's a slight mid-scooped Jazz on steroids kinda thing... And no, I'm not kidding...

Also, there's a brand of basses that specializes on that particular niche of the market. Let's read what they have to say:

" CallowHill™ was originally developed as a specialty instrument designed with, and for, bassists coming out of the Black Gospel tradition. Mind you, if the aforementioned tradition were a town, then I'm not even on the same planet; however, having spent over ten years modifying and repairing basses for players from this genre, it struck me that none of the large manufacturers (and few of the boutique) cared to address common complaints and suggestions from this group of insanely talented musicians.

The initial goal was to build light-weight, well-balanced (tonally and physically) instruments with premium electronics and a thick, authoritative, well defined voice. The end result is a bass that surpasses all of the initial goals. All basses are currently bolt-ons, available in a 34” scale with ¾” spacing at the bridge." (...)

[narud]

Originally Posted by allexcosta

Maybe we have different opinions on what's THE classic gospel tone... To me it's a slight mid-scooped Jazz on steroids kinda thing... And no, I'm not kidding...

Also, there's a brand of basses that specializes on that particular niche of the market. Let's read what they have to say:

" CallowHill™ was originally developed as a specialty instrument designed with, and for, bassists coming out of the Black Gospel tradition. Mind you, if the aforementioned tradition were a town, then I'm not even on the same planet; however, having spent over ten years modifying and repairing basses for players from this genre, it struck me that none of the large manufacturers (and few of the boutique) cared to address common complaints and suggestions from this group of insanely talented musicians.

The initial goal was to build light-weight, well-balanced (tonally and physically) instruments with premium electronics and a thick, authoritative, well defined voice. The end result is a bass that surpasses all of the initial goals. All basses are currently bolt-ons, available in a 34” scale with ¾” spacing at the bridge." (...)

im with bryan. i dont necessarily associate jazz bass with gospel. youll here everything get played,but i think ken smith and mtd before a fender style axe. i see those get played more often as well.

[Bryan R. Tyler]

Originally Posted by allexcosta

Also, there's a brand of basses that specializes on that particular niche of the market. Let's read what they have to say:

" CallowHill™ was originally developed as a specialty instrument designed with, and for, bassists coming out of the Black Gospel tradition. Mind you, if the aforementioned tradition were a town, then I'm not even on the same planet; however, having spent over ten years modifying and repairing basses for players from this genre, it struck me that none of the large manufacturers (and few of the boutique) cared to address common complaints and suggestions from this group of insanely talented musicians.

The initial goal was to build light-weight, well-balanced (tonally and physically) instruments with premium electronics and a thick, authoritative, well defined voice. The end result is a bass that surpasses all of the initial goals. All basses are currently bolt-ons, available in a 34” scale with ¾” spacing at the bridge." (...)

Putting out a line of basses that specializes in achieving the classic gospel sound and choosing to use bolt-ons doesn't change the fact that a large amount of classic gospel bass was played on neck-throughs. Heck, he makes them 34" as well and MTDs are way more popular in the gospel scene, and they're 35". It's more than possible to achieve that tone with either neck-through or bolt-on, fingers or pick, or 34" or 35". You could put me on one of those Callowhills and I can guarantee you it wouldn't sound like classic gospel bass tone I just don't sound that way, bass or not.