V/V/T = Why?

LeonD · #1 09-13-2009, 02:09 PM

I just acquired a bass that's wired volume, volume, tone. The pickups are Kent Armstrong Handmade and the electronics are passive. This is the third bass I've had that's been wired in the V/V/T configuration.

I can hear a unique tone when the pickups are all bridge pickup, all neck pickup or both pickups evenly.

I can not hear a difference when its all neck pickup or mostly neck pickup. I also can't hear a difference when its all bridge pickup or mostly bridge pickup.

Once it's off the even balance, it all sounds the same to me (with respect to either the bridge or neck pickups.

I don't hear the subtleties that folks talk about.

Am I alone on this? Are my ears shot?

LeonD

RedLeg · #2 09-13-2009, 02:14 PM

on my PJ (which is vvt) the single coil is hotter than the P so I back of the J to about 7 to take some edge off

ctmullins · #3 09-13-2009, 05:44 PM

Sounds like this could be due to the behavior of audio (log) taper pots versus linear taper pots. There's been quite a bit of discussion about the difference lately.

The way it's supposed to work is that, since the ear hears logarithmically, a log taper pot will compensate for this, and the perception is linear. Until recently, I was a proponent of this theory.

After carefully listening to my log-taper-equipped V/V/T basses, my ears tell me that the log taper pots actually don't sound linear; they sound logarithmic. This is the phenomenon that you describe above - no change in the sweep of the knob until about the last 10 percent. I have some linear taper pots on order, and I'm expecting them to make a big difference here.

Jazz Ad · #4 09-13-2009, 06:04 PM

You can always go v/t/3 way switch if it fits you better.

PilbaraBass · #5 09-13-2009, 06:14 PM

My findings...

Although, I don't own a P/J anymore...here's what I've found...

on a P/J, since the P is significantly different in design than the J it is often quite hot:

Start with both pots off...turn the P pickup up to about 80-90% of max volume...then add enough bridge to bring up the harmonic content of the bass...this is usually about halfway...
I like this setting for my "P" sound

For my "J" sound I put the bridge pickup on full and will dial in just a "smidge" of "P" as required...it's strong medicine so only a dab will do...

For a "blended" sound...I will usually run the P-pickup 80-90% and the bridge full up...but this is not my favourite sound on a P/J...

So for a P/J I like straight P...P+...J and J+...but I don't like "P+J" if you know what I'm saying...

On a Jazz bass...since the pickups are similar in design, I find that a blend pot is actually better, and I find more variability in sounds with.

newbold · #6 09-13-2009, 06:14 PM

Dude...V/V/T is wholly useful.

the neck pickup can be rolled into tone with the bridge to add a bit of low end, the bridge pickup can be rolled in for some snarl.

Turn the tone up on your bass or try using the volumes less than full bore.

You'll start playing with 'all' but eventually you'll learn how to use your volumes and tone to work as a sort of EQ in itself.

I have a 3 way toggle, master volume, tone for awhile when I had a 4 string jazz.

wish I had series/parallel as an option on that bass. it was great, but now I use my volumes a whole lot more than I ever thought about. Your bass will sound a lot differently at lower volumes, and with lower volumes, one pickup or the other can then be rolled in and the mix will bring out lots of tone and playing dynamics.

LeonD · #7 09-13-2009, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ctmullins

I have some linear taper pots on order, and I'm expecting them to make a big difference here.

Definitely let us know how it works out.

Quote:

the neck pickup can be rolled into tone with the bridge to add a bit of low end, the bridge pickup can be rolled in for some snarl.

Turn the tone up on your bass or try using the volumes less than full bore.

I understand what you're saying. My point is that I don't really hear a difference until the blend is in the middle.

That's one thing I haven't tried, the volume less then full. One of the volumes is always all the way up.

What two volumes do for me is make me use my volume pedal. It's the only easy way to change the volume.

One of my basses I did replace a volume with a three way switch. It worked very well and I'm thinking of doing it again.

LeonD

Goodlawdy · #8 09-13-2009, 06:36 PM

I love the Jazz bass for this very reason.

I think you can hear the differences more so the louder you're amp is turned up.

I start by cranking the amp pretty good, then I add in the amount of punch with the bridge, or girth with the neck until I get the sound I want.

newbold · #9 09-13-2009, 07:27 PM

the bass is only one part of the 'how do you get killer tone' equation

Goodlawdy, I set my bass up to drive my preamp (or to be able to back off) and effects instead of being a set of tone selections or one sound that i have effected or amplified as well and I believe that signal is there to drive gear.

Try turning your bass' volume down and turn your amp up. a lot, LeonD.

Then when you use your volume and tone controls you'll actually discern a difference. If you set your bass with full volume, all you can do is turn it down.

Fewer choices mean fewer opportunities and limits your overall consciousness level.

Ommmmmmmmm.

LeonD · #10 09-13-2009, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbold

the bass is only one part of the 'how do you get killer tone' equation

Goodlawdy, I set my bass up to drive my preamp (or to be able to back off) and effects instead of being a set of tone selections or one sound that i have effected or amplified as well and I believe that signal is there to drive gear.

Try turning your bass' volume down and turn your amp up. a lot, LeonD.

Then when you use your volume and tone controls you'll actually discern a difference. If you set your bass with full volume, all you can do is turn it down.

Fewer choices mean fewer opportunities and limits your overall consciousness level.

Ommmmmmmmm.

No, no, no. My issue is not with my bass tone. My bass tone is glorious.

Nothing wrong with the tone.

My question is about the advantage of VVT. I understand the concept but I don't hear it.

One thing I've noticed is that the advocates on this thread are mentioning J pickups. All my VVT basses have had humbuckers. Could that make a difference?

LeonD

PilbaraBass · #11 09-13-2009, 08:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LeonD

No, no, no. My issue is not with my bass tone. My bass tone is glorious.

Nothing wrong with the tone.

My question is about the advantage of VVT. I understand the concept but I don't hear it.

One thing I've noticed is that the advocates on this thread are mentioning J pickups. All my VVT basses have had humbuckers. Could that make a difference?

LeonD

I think your situation is similar to what I feel about VVT on a jazz bass...with both pickups being similar, it's a fine line to dial in a bit of the other pickup into the other, otherwise the sound isn't that different from the equal blend...

for this reason I like a blend pot vs. a vvt on a jazz bass...

why don't you try starting with both pickups half volume, and then blend from there?

OrionManMatt · #12 09-13-2009, 09:46 PM

I prefer a VVT with a jazz bass because of the pickup loading for tones that I just can't seem to get with a VBT setup.

ctmullins, I have a Sadowsky MV5 that feels like the tone only really changes in the last percentage, which seems really silly to me. REALLY SILLY.

ShirazBop · #13 09-13-2009, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedLeg

on my PJ (which is vvt) the single coil is hotter than the P so I back of the J to about 7 to take some edge off

..zactly way I play mine as well...

Munjibunga · #14 09-13-2009, 09:59 PM

My F Bass was the only one I ever had with VVT, and I had it rewired to VBT like a normal bass. I like it a lot better that way.

newbold · #15 09-14-2009, 12:28 AM

V/V/T lets one roll in or out a different tone
V/B/T adds one pickup in while subtracting from the other.

totally different - and while rolling in and out can have the same ratios, there are ratios at volumes that the V/B/T cannot...like full volume on one pickup and a little bit on the other.

To each their own, but V/B/T can't do it all while V/V/T CAN.

I would prefer a rotary pickup selection switch with series/parallel and phase options to a blend, as that comes closer to doing it all compared to V/V/T. While that does MORE than a V/V/T, it still doesn't work like a sort of EQ.

PilbaraBass · #16 09-14-2009, 12:49 AM

I've had both VVT and VBT..and like I said before, I prefer VVT on a P/J, because they are a bit more "fiddly" than a jazz and require more tweakability...on a Jazz, I don't find this problem and can't say if there is much a difference on the pickup loading thing, but if you say so, folks...but I just find it much more convenient to use a VBT on a Jazz...

Interestingly, thinking about this...I have 4 basses and 3 of them are single pickup...so I only worry about blending pickups on one of them...ha

ctmullins · #17 09-14-2009, 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbold

V/V/T lets one roll in or out a different tone
V/B/T adds one pickup in while subtracting from the other.

totally different - and while rolling in and out can have the same ratios, there are ratios at volumes that the V/B/T cannot...like full volume on one pickup and a little bit on the other.

To each their own, but V/B/T can't do it all while V/V/T CAN.

I would prefer a rotary pickup selection switch with series/parallel and phase options to a blend, as that comes closer to doing it all compared to V/V/T. While that does MORE than a V/V/T, it still doesn't work like a sort of EQ.

Not if you have a proper blend pot. A proper blend pot will have both volumes at 100% in the center of its travel. Rolling it one way will drop the volume for one pickup (but not the other), and rolling it the other way does the opposite.

Jazz Ad · #18 09-14-2009, 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by newbold

V/V/T lets one roll in or out a different tone
V/B/T adds one pickup in while subtracting from the other.

totally different - and while rolling in and out can have the same ratios, there are ratios at volumes that the V/B/T cannot...like full volume on one pickup and a little bit on the other.

To each their own, but V/B/T can't do it all while V/V/T CAN.

It's probably the 100th time I see this on the forum.
It is still incorrect. V/B/T and V/V/T can achieve exactly the same settings.

Ezbass · #19 09-14-2009, 08:11 AM

I can hear the subtle differences of blend when sitting at home playing solo, but to be honest it's all lost live. This is why I changed from VVT to VT 3way.

OrionManMatt · #20 09-14-2009, 08:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jazz Ad

It's probably the 100th time I see this on the forum.
It is still incorrect. V/B/T and V/V/T can achieve exactly the same settings.

Perhaps it's the hum-canceling Sadowsky pickups for me or something else I can't quite locate, but I have yet to get the "90% neck/100% bridge" tone I can get with any other VVT jazz bass I've played.

The only times I've ever had a problem getting that tone is with a VBT bass. I'm all ears to hear why this is "still incorrect."