Why cant a PJ sound like a real P

pattyløve · #1 09-07-2009, 03:28 AM

I hear that a PJ (or any other combo with a P) wont sound the exact same as a single P bass, even with the pup solo'd.
Is this true? If so, why? And how different will it sound?

I really like the way a P fits in the mix and i regret selling mine... but while GASing for a new P, i might just convert my J to a PJ but id want to know if the above statement is correct.

Edit: Sorry if this has been answered before but ive done a search with no findings.

Number27 · #2 09-07-2009, 03:38 AM

well what happens is that when you introduce the jazz pickup the extra magnetic pull on the strings prevents them from "ringing" correctly and changes the tone, whether or not you're receiving signal from that pickup or not. what's more the wood removed from the body while routing for said extra pickup leaves less "resonant material" which again changes the tone. what's more again; because the two pickups are wired together in series some of the signal from the p pickup, which is always wired in first, gets filtered out before reaching the jack, which weakens the tone. and so there you go: that is why your p/j will never sound like a real p.

irvinz · #3 09-07-2009, 03:48 AM

"well what happens is that when you introduce the jazz pickup the extra magnetic pull on the strings prevents them from "ringing" correctly and changes the tone, whether or not you're receiving signal from that pickup or not"

really?

Matthijs · #4 09-07-2009, 03:54 AM

A solo'd P pickup on a pj sounds like a solo'd p pickup. They're not wired in series. The routing may have a small effect, depending on the bass. P pickups mostly don't need deep routing. If the body is a standard, well made jazz style body I doubt you'll hear the difference. The extra string pull from having both a j and a p pickup will only be a factor if the pickup's are to close to the strings. Otherwise all j basses would sound bad because of string pull.

It is perfectly possible to get a good p sound from a pj bass. The difficulty is in the blended sounds of the p and j pickup. Anyway if you want to add a p pickup to your j, you'll have to loose the j neck pickup.

Number27 · #5 09-07-2009, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by irvinz

"well what happens is that when you introduce the jazz pickup the extra magnetic pull on the strings prevents them from "ringing" correctly and changes the tone, whether or not you're receiving signal from that pickup or not"

really?

no

you'd need like a whole bunch more pickups than just one. i was just makin stuff up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smartypants

It is perfectly possible to get a good p sound from a pj bass. The difficulty is in the blended sounds of the p and j pickup. Anyway if you want to add a p pickup to your j, you'll have to loose the j neck pickup

hey, if like the tone i get from blending the p and the j... way better than just the p.

also, i you're planning on doing a little routing anyway, why not go the whole 9 yards and route out a new spot for your (jazz) neck pickup?

pattyløve · #6 09-07-2009, 04:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matthijs

A solo'd P pickup on a pj sounds like a solo'd p pickup. They're not wired in series. The routing may have a small effect, depending on the bass. P pickups mostly don't need deep routing. If the body is a standard, well made jazz style body I doubt you'll hear the difference. The extra string pull from having both a j and a p pickup will only be a factor if the pickup's are to close to the strings. Otherwise all j basses would sound bad because of string pull.

It is perfectly possible to get a good p sound from a pj bass. The difficulty is in the blended sounds of the p and j pickup. Anyway if you want to add a p pickup to your j, you'll have to loose the j neck pickup.

Okay this is what i needed to hear

That yes, it will make a difference but very minimal.
And the loss of the neck pup is no hassle... its not boomy or growly enough to do anything for me anyway.

Cheers Matthijs

Matthijs · #7 09-07-2009, 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Number27

no

you'd need like a whole bunch more pickups than just one. i was just makin stuff up.

hey, if like the tone i get from blending the p and the j... way better than just the p.

also, i you're planning on doing a little routing anyway, why not go the whole 9 yards and route out a new spot for your (jazz) neck pickup?

I'm sorry if I didn't get your humor number27.

Anyway, I like my Pj's blended sound too. It took me some time to get it right without excessive noise from the j pickup and some p's and j's just don't sound right together.

KPAX · #8 09-07-2009, 07:21 AM

A p-bass with PJ pickups and bridge pickup off does sound like a normal p-bass, to me anyways.

Darkstrike · #9 09-07-2009, 07:40 AM

Uh, the only thing that can cause a difference is the extra tone load from a third pot, thats why some use a three way, master tone, master volume setup, like on the Tony Franklin P bass.

pasta4lnch · #10 09-07-2009, 07:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Darkstrike

Uh, the only thing that can cause a difference is the extra tone load from a third pot, thats why some use a three way, master tone, master volume setup, like on the Tony Franklin P bass.

I've really been thinking about doing this w/ my p/j. master vol/2 way on/off for the J/Tone . . .

DerHoggz · #11 09-07-2009, 07:56 AM

Maybe you should route it ala the Stu Hamm Urge bass. The P pickup would have a more biting tone than in its regular spot.

**line6man** · #12 09-07-2009, 08:46 AM

A PJ bass in the VVT or VBT arrangement will not sound like a true P bass because of the presence of a second volume pot in the circuit, which decreases the resistance from signal to ground, reducing output.

Aside from issues of string pull, as long as you are able to remove the extra pot, the tone should remain the same.

Another issue is that sometimes matched PJ sets can be wound differently to sound better blended, at the expense of the authentic tone when soloed.

This thread explains it:
Do P/J's have output level issues?

JimmyM · #13 09-07-2009, 09:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by line6man

A PJ bass in the VVT or VBT arrangement will not sound like a true P bass because of the presence of a second volume pot in the circuit, which decreases the resistance from signal to ground, reducing output.

That makes such a tiny little difference that I hesitate to call it a difference.

**line6man** · #14 09-07-2009, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

That makes such a tiny little difference that I hesitate to call it a difference.

Um.
I can hear a HUGE difference.

Assuming the J on 0 and the P on 10, the PJ VVT setup is the equivalent on a regular P bass to rolling the volume back approximately a fifth. (Depending on the pot taper)

JKambing · #15 09-07-2009, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

That makes such a tiny little difference that I hesitate to call it a difference.

I just bought a Squier P Bass Special, and while trying it I completely turned down the volume of the bridge pickup. I played, and it sounded like a normal P bass (at least to my ears). Maybe I didn't spend enough time with it, so I can't tell. I can't play the bass right now because I'm getting it set up, but I think the difference should not be that noticable.

Matthijs · #16 09-07-2009, 09:36 AM

If you think the resistance of a second pot is a problem, replace them with 500k pots or add a buffering pre-amp. I did both, but I have to admit it's overkill.

I like the idea of a j+p+j setup as in the stu hamm urge bass, but I think the p tone also has a lot to do with that exact spot it is in. I converted my own fretless Yamaha BB1200 from p to a pj. Adding a neck-j in a spot that's closer to the neck than in a standard j would be a nice experiment, but I like the bass as it is though.

JimmyM · #17 09-07-2009, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by line6man

Um.
I can hear a HUGE difference.

Assuming the J on 0 and the P on 10, the PJ VVT setup is the equivalent on a regular P bass to rolling the volume back approximately a fifth. (Depending on the pot taper)

Sorry but I don't believe that for a second. All my basses with PJ's have the same output as any P I own or owned. I'd say there was a difference with the pickups themselves more than an extra volume pot.

**bassybill** · #18 09-07-2009, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by line6man

Um.
I can hear a HUGE difference.

Assuming the J on 0 and the P on 10, the PJ VVT setup is the equivalent on a regular P bass to rolling the volume back approximately a fifth. (Depending on the pot taper)

What sort of wiring are we talking about here? Got a diagram?

I'd be interested to hear how the second pot DECREASES the resistance "from signal to ground" and how this decreases the output. I'm confused by what you've claimed there, tbh.

Kyon` · #19 09-07-2009, 11:48 AM

While I'm not sure the second pot can add that much of a difference or the routing, is it possible that it's just the pickup itself? That the p pickup they're using already sounds a tad bit different from the traditional Fender one and also the placement of the pup? Just a guess.

**line6man** · #20 09-07-2009, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JimmyM

Sorry but I don't believe that for a second. All my basses with PJ's have the same output as any P I own or owned. I'd say there was a difference with the pickups themselves more than an extra volume pot.

What value pots?

Adding a second volume pot cuts the resistance to ground in half.
Maybe you have PJ setups with 500K pots and P's with 250K pots?