Yet Another "Mud-bucker" Thread

[ZiggyZipgun]

I believe Curtis Novak is now making mudbuckers, to either vintage or custom specs.

http://curtisnovak.com/pickups/ComingSoon/index.shtml

[GBassNorth]

Just picked one of these up today. http://www.fender.com/products/moder...tno=0241502550
Very different sound from any of my other basses. It has a unique "grunt" ultra deep tone in the neck position that lacks clarity but the bridge pickup can be dialed in to provide definition and a cutting tone. I'm still playing with it to see which of my amps best fits it and I'm sure it will never by my main bass but it fills a sonic niche that none of my other basses can reach.

[samurai1993]

Originally Posted by GBassNorth

Just picked one of these up today. http://www.fender.com/products/moder...tno=0241502550
Very different sound from any of my other basses. It has a unique "grunt" ultra deep tone in the neck position that lacks clarity but the bridge pickup can be dialed in to provide definition and a cutting tone. I'm still playing with it to see which of my amps best fits it and I'm sure it will never by my main bass but it fills a sonic niche that none of my other basses can reach.

Pics of the pups? I've always tought that those where P-bass pickups under the hood

[GBassNorth]

Originally Posted by samurai1993

Pics of the pups? I've always tought that those where P-bass pickups under the hood

Looking at the split pole positions I'd guess you are correct, which means they don't necessarily qualify as a mudbucker, but after playing them and other true mudbucker basses I'd put them in the same tonal class.

[samurai1993]

Originally Posted by GBassNorth

Looking at the split pole positions I'd guess you are correct, which means they don't necessarily qualify as a mudbucker, but after playing them and other true mudbucker basses I'd put them in the same tonal class.

Interesting, it would be nice to see what's going on under that cover, maybe those are overwound like hell

[Doner Designs]

We have used the Artec and Gotoh, both sound pretty good. This go around we're giving the Gotoh bridge pickup a try too...

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by samurai1993

Pics of the pups? I've always tought that those where P-bass pickups under the hood

No, they are humbuckers. They just have two poles in each coil exposed, and the other two poles not exposed, but adjustable from the bottom.

This is one of the original ones:



Originally the poles were threaded CuNiFe magnets. They were designed by Seth Love who did Gibson's "PAF" humbucker.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fender_Wide_Range

[petrus61]

I modified a precision with an early 70's Gibson EB pickup. The position was just a hair south of the neck, as to allow enough wood in the pocket between the neck and pickup. I had each pup wired with concentic pots, it was VT/VT. The the Gibson pup sounded great but seemed to rob the Fender pup of it's balls, even when not engaged. Both pups engaged wide open gave the bass a really grindy, throaty Precision tone which I did not like at all. It was basically everything I didnt' like about what a Precision sounds like. I ultimately took out the split coil and operated the Gibson solo. There was still a bit to be desired, tone-wise. I suspect that the EB's mahogony bodies and short scale go a long way, in conjunction with the mudbucker to produce that "Jack Bruce"-like quality the EB's are known for. It just did not translate as well to an alder bodied, maple necked long scale bass, at least not in my case.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by petrus61

The the Gibson pup sounded great but seemed to rob the Fender pup of it's balls, even when not engaged. Both pups engaged wide open gave the bass a really grindy, throaty Precision tone which I did not like at all. It was basically everything I didnt' like about what a Precision sounds like. I ultimately took out the split coil and operated the Gibson solo. There was still a bit to be desired, tone-wise. I suspect that the EB's mahogony bodies and short scale go a long way, in conjunction with the mudbucker to produce that "Jack Bruce"-like quality the EB's are known for. It just did not translate as well to an alder bodied, maple necked long scale bass, at least not in my case.

The problem is that the mudbucker has a very high impedance. It's wound around 30k. The P pickup is 11k. So the mudbucker will overpower the P. It's the same way, and even worse, on an EB-3.

I had a mudbucker in one of my Ricks. I had an old Bartolini H-A at the bridge, which is about 6k. To get them to play nice with each other I rewound the mud to about 12k. It still had a deep tone, but they now mixed better. It was also a little clearer sounding.

They are quirky sounding pickups. They have very little treble response and have a grunty tone. Jack Bruce also had some clipping diodes installed in his bass (like the Black Ice thing), and of course plugged into a cranked up Marshall 100Watt stacks.

[Silver Blues]

Subbed

[jumblemind]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

No, they are humbuckers. They just have two poles in each coil exposed, and the other two poles not exposed, but adjustable from the bottom.

They still sound warmer and fatter than the sidewinders in both my Epi EB-0 and the Artec and GOTOH replacements I've heard. Have you found that to be the case? None of the new versions seem to have the warmth I was hoping for. I've been thinking about dropping a mudbucker into my jazz just for super fat tone when playing motown-type stuff, but I just might look for one of these VM tb replacements instead.

[Doner Designs]

Originally Posted by jumblemind

They still sound warmer and fatter than the sidewinders in both my Epi EB-0 and the Artec and GOTOH replacements I've heard. Have you found that to be the case? None of the new versions seem to have the warmth I was hoping for. I've been thinking about dropping a mudbucker into my jazz just for super fat tone when playing motown-type stuff, but I just might look for one of these VM tb replacements instead.

I think they work really nice in a J bass. My usual wiring scheme is to put a 3 way switch on the neck/middle. Most of the time I use the middle by itself or use the mudbucker with the bridge (like an EB-3). That way you have a separate volume for each pickup - start with the bridge on full and add mud to taste.

Of course to use the pickups effectively as described you really need hum canceling J pickups. I use Dimarzio Area J.

Another option would be to wire the J pickups together on a single volume pot, or get a 5 hole control plate and do V/V/V/T.

To me its a great cheap and cool way to give yourself an onboard bass boost control without a preamp.

[jumblemind]

Originally Posted by Doner Designs

I think they work really nice in a J bass. My usual wiring scheme is to put a 3 way switch on the neck/middle. Most of the time I use the middle by itself or use the mudbucker with the bridge (like an EB-3). That way you have a separate volume for each pickup - start with the bridge on full and add mud to taste.

Those pics look great. I was thinking of adding in a switch to simply toggle between mudbucker-only and standard jazz setup (middle and bridge). Was thinking of just adding a volume control for the mudbucker with a cap so that the tone was the equivalent of zero and separate from the jazz pup tone circuit. But a 3-way with V/V/V/T probably makes more sense.

Do you find the difference in outputs a problem, or is that resolved by having a volume control to blend? I'm assuming the jazz pups have a much lower output than the aftermarket mudbucker, another reason I thought about getting the humbucker telebass pickup instead.

[AuntieBeeb]

Originally Posted by SGD Lutherie

The problem is that the mudbucker has a very high impedance. It's wound around 30k. The P pickup is 11k. So the mudbucker will overpower the P. It's the same way, and even worse, on an EB-3.

I feel a strong impulse to leap to the defence of the EB-3, but I admit it's a bit of an acquired taste. You certainly need a good amp to cope with a pickup that hot. Inclined to agree about the mahogany body/set neck vs the alder / bolted though - tried an MP Tele bass just last night and it the mudbucker seemed to be hindering the sound more than it helped.

[SGD Lutherie]

Originally Posted by AuntieBeeb

I feel a strong impulse to leap to the defence of the EB-3, but I admit it's a bit of an acquired taste. You certainly need a good amp to cope with a pickup that hot. Inclined to agree about the mahogany body/set neck vs the alder / bolted though - tried an MP Tele bass just last night and it the mudbucker seemed to be hindering the sound more than it helped.

I like mudbuckers, that's why I put one in my Rick.

Even though the impedance is very high, the output isn't. Once you get past a certain point you just lose high end. The Tele bass humbucker is totally different, and not wound as hot.

On my Rick (longer scale, maple neck through maple body, etc) the mudbucker sounded like a mudbucker.

[Doner Designs]

Originally Posted by jumblemind

Those pics look great. I was thinking of adding in a switch to simply toggle between mudbucker-only and standard jazz setup (middle and bridge). Was thinking of just adding a volume control for the mudbucker with a cap so that the tone was the equivalent of zero and separate from the jazz pup tone circuit. But a 3-way with V/V/V/T probably makes more sense.

Do you find the difference in outputs a problem, or is that resolved by having a volume control to blend? I'm assuming the jazz pups have a much lower output than the aftermarket mudbucker, another reason I thought about getting the humbucker telebass pickup instead.

I can't explain the science, but David from SGD will probably chime in on this. For me the output difference does not cause any issues since I always put the mudbucker and bridge on separate volumes.

On my J bass (which has the Artec), somehow the J pickup at the bridge actually supresses the mudbucker. In other words if you start with only the mudbucker on, and then roll on the bridge, the mudbucker output goes down and total output goes down. A little odd but not a big deal once you are used to it.

If you start with bridge and far neck full on and then roll off the neck slightly it is very well balanced.

On my P bass I have the Gotoh at the neck and a GFS MM at the bridge. In that case, the bridge is a little higher in output than a J pickup and the Gotoh has less output vs the Artec. So, on the P bass the mud/bridge tone is perfect without rolling off the mud and the mismatch does not result in goofy volume settings.

All in all the Gotoh is a better sounding pickup (to me) but not as wild and wooly as the Artec.

The Gotoh only has one magnet per side. I'm not sure if that is the key to the lower output or if its also a difference in windings.

So, as you say, using a strat type 5 way switch would not work well with the differing pickups. But so long as you have two or more volume controls life is good - its almost like having a bass boost control without the battery.

By the way - concerning wiring, my P and J both have only 2 volumes and the 3 way switch is between neck and middle. The other two controls are passive bass and treble controls. The passive bass cut is useful (in theory) with a mudbucker. In practice I rarely use either of the tone controls - I just like to play with complicated wiring. Three volumes and no tone is probably the more practical setup. The Air Force Bass (or air guitar if you like) will have three volumes, bass, treble and on/off toggles for each pickup but that admittedly is overkill and really done more for the visuals of the cockpit theme.

[Shane Carter]

I have been looking for a direct replacement for my 1965 EBO. Just the pickup, so I can return it to original condition. Anyone here try Curtis Novak's replacement. I did watch the YouTube video on it and it looks interesting.

[Doner Designs]

Had to post here after finishing the Air Force Bass.

J has the Artec. Both P's have the Gotoh. All 3 from Guitar Parts Resource.

The Gotoh is more polite sounding. I might go back to the Artec next time and try to add 4 conductor wiring.

I might give the Curtis Novak a try, but its 4 times the price of the Gotoh and is not a sidewinder like the original mudbuckers. It appears to be a regular humbucker under the hood. I guess the "pole pieces" you can see are decorative? Looks interesting though.

[Doner Designs]

We finally got around to recording sound clips of our triple pickup Air Force Bass. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vABSxGrZdPg