Afterlength muting, the H clamp, and further proof that Einstein wasn't born in KY

[Chris Fitzgerald]

I've been playing sessions for the past 9 months or so at the very mansionlike abode of Chuck Marohnic a great KY expatriate pianist who recently retired back to the homeland after a few decades out west. His music room has a 20 foot ceiling, stone and glass walls, and a tile floor, and houses a great 7' Schimmel grand and a nice drum kit. The playing and the players are great, but he insists that the bass be unamplified for all of the sessions.

For the whole time I've been playing there, I've just unpacked my bass with the afterlength still muted with foam and with the mic crammed up against the bridge. While I could always get a good sound, it was always a bit too quiet compared to the piano and drums, and sounded kind of tight. Today, since we were recording, I thought I'd try removing all of the muting stuff and the mic and see if it helped at all.

Whoah, Nellie...did it ever. The sound fattened up a ton, especially on the G string, and the bass vibrated about twice as much. Very liberating. Very nice. And also, you'd think, very obvious. If you weren't a dumb hillbilly from KY, that is.

Anyway, I think I'll be trying the H clamp real soon. If - in between telling me what a chump I've been all this time for not figuring this out sooner - some of you could reassure me that the H clamp will hold up my Beta 57 nicely without restricting the vibration of the bass too much, that would be lovely.

Hoo-ahh!

[fingers]

That's why I always stay away from sound guys that want to wrap a mic in foam and shove it between the bridge feet or shoving a mic through the afterlengths.

The H-Clamp sounds interesting. The price is the only thing that has kept me from buying one. Bob's got it for $120. I bought a mic stand for $25 that is designed for bass drums and it works great.

[salcott]

If you need to hang a mic in the bridge, use two rubber bands in a "shockmount" configuration. No muting, great sound. (Thanks to the late David Baker for this trick)

[Uncletoad]

I love those moments.

[gnergaard]

I just got my H-clamp yesterday. Been goofing around with it ever since, as I don't have gigs this week end.
Got it used off of a talkbass-er. Still wasn't cheap.
BUT- I have to say that it's pretty freakin' smart. So far I'd say that I have encountered a few limitations. The main one being that an audio technica 4047 (large diaphragm side-address mic) is pretty damn heavy in it's shockmount and this limits some mic placement possibilities. Also- as the most obvious placement for the H-clamp is in the corners/cutaways on the 'g' side playing with a bow is gonna be tricky. The 'boom arm" isn't long enough to reach up to the f holes from the b(bottom of the instrument.
I believe that explore audio actually has two solutions for this: a extra long boom arm and a very light weight shock mount. Both can be purchased separately or as options and I'm already wishing I had both. Of course this thing would cost well over $200 with these additions. Yikes!
Definitely time for a "how do you use your H-clamp?" thread so that we can all read about the solutions that others on the site have come up with.
Anyway, these challenges aside, it seems like a great tool for the kind of recording session that you are describing, Chris- and most of the issues I see with it would be eliminated by using a smaller, lighter mic like your Beta 57. So much easier to close mic the bass in a live session and not have to worry about moving an inch or two and loosing the sound that the engineer just took 30 minutes to find. I just finished a bunch of recording last fall, but I do have small session coming up at the end of the month. I'll report if anyone wants to know how it goes.
PS- sounds like a lovely studio! 20 ft ceilings! YES!
PPS- Fingers, if you want to check one of these out before you buy, I'm local. Shoot me a line.

[fingers]

Thanks Greg. I may take you up on it sometime.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Originally Posted by gnergaard

The main one being that an audio technica 4047 (large diaphragm side-address mic) is pretty damn heavy in it's shockmount and this limits some mic placement possibilities. Also- as the most obvious placement for the H-clamp is in the corners/cutaways on the 'g' side playing with a bow is gonna be tricky. The 'boom arm" isn't long enough to reach up to the f holes from the b(bottom of the instrument.

I'm most curious about the weight issues, since one obvious advantage
to the H clamp would be being able to try a bunch of different mics in a live situation. Does it seem like your heavy mic isn't very stable, or does it just make you nervous? Also, since I don't play arco (insert Damon S. here ), I was thinking about placing it in the "C" bout between the corners on the G side. Any other great unwashed pizz players doing this?

Definitely time for a "how do you use your H-clamp?" thread so that we can all read about the solutions that others on the site have come up with.

Go for it!

PS- sounds like a lovely studio! 20 ft ceilings! YES!

No kidding. I'm gonna try to attach a pic of a small jazz vespers concert this past summer. The pic was taken from inside a shorter space adjacent to the main room so you can't get the whole scope, but it gives you the idea. It's a gorgeous room. BTW, I'm not playing on this one - I'm the guy in blue sitting on the staircase with my 5 year old son.

[bolo]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

I'm most curious about the weight issues, since one obvious advantage
to the H clamp would be being able to try a bunch of different mics in a live situation. Does it seem like your heavy mic isn't very stable, or does it just make you nervous? Also, since I don't play arco (insert Damon S. here ), I was thinking about placing it in the "C" bout between the corners on the G side. Any other great unwashed pizz players doing this?

The weight thing used to make me nervous, but not anymore. The problem I had was that the top of my bass domes up from the edge rather quickly in some spots. This made it harder for the disks to get a good grip since the surface wasn't flat. The disks would slip and the mic would droop. Solved that problem by moving the clamp closer to the end "point" of the lower half of the middle bout, as depicted below.

Note - If you've got a roundback bass, you've potentially got the same problem on the back of the bass.

The Beta 57A is listed as 275 grams. My Beyer is 320 grams. I haven't felt (heard) the need for a shock mount, but you'd have to include that in the weight too if you're going to use one.

Here's how I set it up now. If I ever use a bow and the H-clamp together, I may need to rethink things. In that scenario, I think I'd probably try mounting the clamp on the lower bout and extending it away from the table quite a bit. But I think "close" miking the way it's set up in the pics sounds cool for pizz on my bass.

Not done experimenting yet. I think that's in large part what it's designed for.

[fingers]

Just a side note on the feedback/muting thing. This is probably old news but here goes. I used to run live sound and have played a large number of venues. Too much stage volume is often the problem when it comes to feedback.

This probably only appies to acoustic music. I work a bunch with a leader that ascribes to the Branford school. No amps or monitors on stage when there is pa (but maybe an H-Clamp). We (the drummer and I) managed to convince him to let me use an amp but I only turn up for support. In an indoor venue we never use monitors. The band has to balance itself onstage the old fashioned way. Then the pa can be as loud as you want in the house and there are no strange sound issues on stage.

In a perfect world.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Today, since we were recording, I thought I'd try removing all of the muting stuff and the mic and see if it helped at all.

Whoah, Nellie...did it ever. The sound fattened up a ton, especially on the G string, and the bass vibrated about twice as much. Very liberating. Very nice. And also, you'd think, very obvious. If you weren't a dumb hillbilly from KY, that is.

Chris,
It seems like a great deal of the things we to to get a good sound
with a pickup and mike are actually counterproductive to getting a good sound acoustically. I feel for you brother, it's always a trade off isn't it? Don't beat yourself up about it cause we all do it. For a while I thought it was just hoosiers from Indiana like me who did this stuff. Then I got on TalkBass.

Originally Posted by Chris Fitzgerald

Anyway, I think I'll be trying the H clamp real soon. If - in between telling me what a chump I've been all this time for not figuring this out sooner - some of you could reassure me that the H clamp will hold up my Beta 57 nicely without restricting the vibration of the bass too much, that would be lovely.
Hoo-ahh!

I just got and H-Clamp myself and I'm waitin' for the Heil Stubby to try it out. I would think that it would hold a Beta 57 pretty easily. But as Bolo said, you have to futz with a little to find the sweet spot for the clamp to sit in.

PS: the best sound I ever got from my bass was in a recording studio
with one of those Chinese copies of a Neumann. No pickup

PPS: I though hoosier was a compliment until I moved to St. Louis!

[fingers]

Well the joke here in Chicago is...

What are the most commonly heard last words in Indiana?

Here, hold my beer.

[jrlynch]

imho, the h clamp is silly well-engineered and, while not cheap, worth every penny. i also recommend using a sabra-som shock mount. very light weight and they'll hold just about anything, even my heil pr40, which is for sure at the upper end of what the h-clamp can hold. a tip: after the mic is set in the sabra-som, wrap a plain ponytail holder around the back of the mic (available at your local drug emporium). it secures it a bit more, so it doesn't slide around in the mount. i can't imagine the shure mic causing a problem at all in the H.

jeff.

[jrlynch]

oh, and i forgot the original reason for my post: i can't notice any way that the h clamp effects the acoustic sound of the bass. i just leave mine on.

jeff.

[flatback]

I have not played with the H clamp for a month since i had to give back the Pr40 stubby. the PR 40 in its miniature form is so well suited to the bass and the H clamp...seems like they were made for each other. having a longer boom on the H clamp may not be a good idea. The H clamp is designed within certain tolerances and changing the boom length would add stress to the clamp. Anyway if you just deal with the limitations of the clamp there are many good places to mic. Robert at Exporaudio has pretty much cut the best line between strength weight elegance and usefulness and although on some bases it may slip in certain positions, it would be really hard to design something that could work equally well on all instruments.
I was using it with a mini mic (Audix) for a minute and then a big PR40 and it worked as well with each. Thinking I really needed a shock mount on there turned out to be not that much an issue the PR 40 and other dynamics have enough internal dampening to do a fine job, and the less stuff on there the better.
The Stubby with its own mount and the H clamp are where its at (for me) The PR40 mic just has the right combo of fatness, rejection, low feedback and high gain on my bass. Mixed with a pick up, its as good a sound (for real daily gig use without finicky knob twisting geekhood) that I ever heard.
I just wish Bob would produce the damn thing before too long.....

[Chris Fitzgerald]

Just ordered an H-clamp, will report back when it gets here.

[flatback]

I thought I'd give Bob a shout today and see how the stubby is coming along and send him some of these posts. Here 's some of what he said...

Hi Piro.
Thanks for sending the posts. My God, I just can't understand people. An SM 57 for BASS? Are they nuts? The -3dB point of an SM 57 (or 58 -same element) is 120Hz. They do that to reduce handling noise. Forget the quality . Forget the low end response...just roll it off IN THE ELEMENT at 120Hz. It is one of the major influences that sent me off the edge, Piro, 4 years ago it was my best friend Joe Walsh that pointed me to this fact. Hell, I hadn't listened to a Shure mic since I left the industry in 1980 when they were STILL built in Evanston, Il and very nice quality. Today, they are built in Mexico and the quality has died. Same with Sennheiser, AT and all the rest of them....being built (and damn proud of it) in China! EEKS!

I received a phone call from the award winning FOH engineer for Tony Bennett last week. Tom Young discovered the PR 20, 30 and 40. With Tony, they use a small trio in VERY close proximity. Tom has NEVER been able to get good separation and isolation live but you live with what you got. Then he put the PR 40 on the acoustic bass. WOW! He no longer hears the piano nor the drums in that bass channel. Isn't that the way it is supposed to be? Well, with all of the others having no R & D and not paying attention to what the market needs, yep - that is what we have....UNTIL the incredible PR 40 came along that Joe and I put our ears and soldering irons to. With over -40 dB of rear rejection, we have proved to the industry that THIS is the 'go-to' microphone. Getting down to 28 Hz (never before heard of in a DYNAMIC) and that incredible rear rejection makes this THE microphone.

I just cringe when I read some of the stupid statements and microphone some of the musicians are using in trying to achieve bass amplification ! An SM 57 for bass? That is like trying to tear down a building with a Volkswagen.

We ARE making progress on the Stubby. I will be showing the prototype you had ( I only have that one!) at NAMM this next weekend. Everyone that had it liked the package and the mount so I proceeded with the tooling to meet the hand build one you had. I should think we would have something in the next month or two. You- Piro will get the serial #1 production model. I promise.

If you or any of your friends are going to attend the NAMM convention in Anaheim we are in Hall A booth 6849. Friday at Noon Slash from Velvet Revolver will be with us and on Saturday we introduce the new Lectrosonic/Heil Sound wireless UT PR 20 in a sponsored concert at the Sheraton.

[Uncletoad]

Originally Posted by flatback

I just cringe when I read some of the stupid statements and microphone some of the musicians are using in trying to achieve bass amplification ! An SM 57 for bass? That is like trying to tear down a building with a Volkswagen.

Tell mr. cringe that the Volkwagen works and it's $100. His mike is $300+ and is the size of corrective shoe. I don't doubt that mic is just the thing for Tony Bennett's band at 6 figures a night but for Joe Jazzbrunch in Whackville Indiana working for $100 and tips looking to add a bit of "air" to his cheasy pickup sound it may be the china cheapy works just fine. Poor schmuck works 6 weeks of buffets for the corrective shoe and it's bracket that looks like an orbiting moon lander strapped to the bass and just one for the Volkswagen jackhammer thats stuck between the strings. So if the jackhammer works than why should he wait around for some smartass engineer to come up with some miniature version of the holy grail corrective shoe. If Tony Bennett's band used an SM57 they SHOULD fire the soundman. If Joe Jazzbrunch gets a nice sound with a cheap mic more power to him.



...sorry his thinking is correct but his perspective is annoying me at 5am with a child that won't sleep.

I'm looking forward to his $300+ mini corrective shoe myself.

[Chris Fitzgerald]

The other thing that gets forgotten in all of this is that many bassists roll off low end anyway to offset the proximity effect of the close mic position in live sound. If people were using a Beta 57 in the studio for bass, hell, even I'd be surprised. But live in the trenches, that low low rolloff often works for it instead of against it.

I'm hoping that the PR40 is a major step up for what I'm trying to do, but if not I can certainly live with what's been working for the last year.

[M Ramsey]

While we're in the mode to criticize those who use (relatively) cheaper mics for "live" music, I witnessed Dennis Crouch, playing his carved English (or French, I can't remember that part) bass in Asheville, NC, a couple of years ago.

Folks, this guy is on some of the recent Elvis Costello recordings, on the Alison Krauss/Robert Plant recording, played the soundtrack for the movie "Walk the Line" (among others) and what was he using? A SM 58.. Yeah, the regular one, not the beta version.

Nothing else and his sound was glorious. Gut strings on a carved bass, over an SM58 sent straight to the board, who woulda thunk it? It's in the player and the bass, not the gadgets. Though, I agree, the gadgets can help.

Oh, forgot this note, the mic was part of the house equipment.

[larry]

Chris nailed it.

I spent several hours comparing my RE20, Beyer M88, several condensers, and an SM58 for live use. I also ran the sounds into a mixer so I could listen in headphones. I don't use a pickup anymore. I'm mic-only.

The Beyer M88 and the Shure SM58 were the clear winners for me, depending on the room. The Beyer has more low end, sometimes it's a little too much - but it's a great mic.

Anytime there is a soundman involved and I hand over control of my tone, I usually use an SM58. It may not be perfect, but you have to work to screw it up.

So much depends on the bass, the player, etc.