All-tube for DB?

[bassteban]

I searched, & the most recent post was from '03(there was some good info, but I'm looking for an update ); I'm wondering: Does anyone here currently run an all-tube amp w/upright, or for that matter, DB and slab?

[fdeck]

In the day, a lot of upright players were happy with the little 15" Ampeg Portaflex.

Are you planning on getting a tube amp, or wondering if an existing one will do the trick? Most tube amps will require an impedance matching preamp, but should otherwise be OK for the task.

Perhaps the only drawback is the non-flat response of historical passive EQ circuits used in those amps. I think Ampeg (and derivatives thereof) are flatter than Fender when the tone knobs are centered.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by bassteban

I searched, & the most recent post was from '03(there was some good info, but I'm looking for an update ); I'm wondering: Does anyone here currently run an all-tube amp w/upright, or for that matter, DB and slab?

Well - generally you are talking about two different and contradictory things....

So - rock BG players like all-tube amps as they add some distortion and "warmth" that fills out the sound live and means that a rock trio can have a fuller sound!

Whereas DB players are looking for something that definitely doesn't distort and that accurately reflects the sound of their bass - plus if they're playing Jazz, then the last thing they want to do is fill out all the sound spectrum, as they will generally want space for soloists to play in...

[jsbarber]

In principle I think there is no reason why a tube amp couldn't work with a double bass. I saw Rufus Reid at the Vanguard about 20 years ago and spoke to him after the gig. He was playing through a custom made tube amp, and he discussed his rig with great enthusiasm and he sounded pretty darn good. However, most of the tube amps you will find out there will be bass guitar amplifiers, which are typically designed to create that "vintage" sound, which may not suit your double bass needs. The canonical vintage amp is the Ampeg Portaflex, as mentioned above. There are some more hi-fi sounding amps, such as the Millennia Media STT-1 preamp (which has dual topology, i.e. SS and tube), and the Demeter gear. Some of the most popular DB amps are the Acoustic Image amps, which people describe as warm. (I have always taken this to mean a tube-like sound.) These amps are very lightweight and portable. A tube poweramp will be very heavy due to need for massive transformers.

In summary, I would be willing to bet that you could find something in tubes that will give you a sound that is satisfactory to your ear. But if you go with a tube poweramp, you will be carrying a lot of weight. You might try a tube preamp and SS poweramp if you're that intent on tubes. This configuration would give you much of the character of tubes, but reduce the weight somewhat.

Jim

ps. I have seen Bob Magnusson play a number of times here in San Diego. He uses an AI amplifier and an Underwood pickup for pizzicato. He sounds unbelievably good. You will see on this forum that the Underwood is not a favored pickup. But Bob sounds amazing with it. It may be that it is just well suited to his instrument. But I would be willing to bet that good technique and great playing ability conquers all gear. i.e. We're better off investing in improving our playing skills than buying gear.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Yeah - distorted, heavy, unreliable due to tubes blowing or running too hot - why on earth would you want one of these things if you could possibly avoid it - give me EA gear, any day!!

[fdeck]

My take on the issue is that DB and slab evolved into different venues, and have followed different paths in the search for "classic" tone.

For the slab player, the default venue is the rock band club gig. The classic tone is a mildly distorted tube amp, and demands for power are such that the weight of a tube head is minimal compared to the speaker stack and other gear that gets loaded in. Of course I am generalizing, but I don't think that my analysis is too far away from the advice widely shared by TB'ers on the slab forum. Guitar-oriented music takes more power.

DB players seem to earn our keep by playing a larger number of gigs in smaller venues, so we are more concerned about transportation. We contend with feedback, which limits how much power and speakarage we can actually make use of. Also, the classic tone is the bass itself. For these reasons, I think our GAS gets directed towards portability, fidelity, and EQ flexibility.

[fradubio]

Hi folks,
Particularly for bass, I don't see the tube tone as being one of distortion, but more the impact on compression that feels more organic than pedals or rack units. If you have a tube amp with decent headroom you won't get distortion unless you really crank things (then you'd get really horrible distortion w/ most solid state stuff anyway).

I think some tube amps can sound hard, even harsh if eq'ed in an odd way. I agree that there is extra weight, but not an inherent lean one way or the other.

The biggest complication I see with many of these setups is if you are using a fuller featured pre-amp for the upright, how do you interface with the amp settings, esp. if you switch between slab and urb. There I think it is more a balance, though I try to keep the head set flat as possible, and adjust eq via the preamp on the urb and bass on the slab.

[WalterBush]

I use a 100w all-tube Seymour Duncan Convertible guitar combo to amplify my upright. I do mostly theater work and "accoustic" rock shows with it, and I have no problems with clean headroom, provided I'm actually on the "clean" channel
It's a 112 combo, and fits nicely seatbelted in the backseat of my car. It enhances the tone of my otherwise unimpressive upright, and has more than enough oomph to get the "turn that bass down" look from your average pit conductor.

[seamonkey]

Do a blind test.

I bet you'll find that a quality SS amp with appropriate signal processing can sound like any amp you want it to - that you won't be able to tell a difference. The signal processing may be as simple as adding a soft clipping to warm (distort) the sound a bit.

See a study done many years ago:
http://milbert.com/articles/TvsT/tvtiega.html
Guitar players who really push the difference couldn't tell.

Note this is an IEEE published paper, and that you can get the original from IEEE.

Also, ask the question on a tube amp board and you'll find that tube amps that are built for ruggedness, reliability and (believe it or not) lightweight, don't make the best sounding amps. There really are no pro-sound or musical instrument tube amps built to be accurate as the pro-sound SS amps.

Play whatever you want to play.

[bassteban]

There are threads(usually in BG )w/7 pages of replies & not half the info here. I'll respond to a few questions & ilkely go all ADD on you...
Firstly, thank you all. Secondly, I'm strictly a hobbyist at the moment, w/no pro/semi-pro aspirations. What got me wondering about tubes for doghouse is the fact that I'm searching for a Mesa/Boogie D-180 for slab; realizing that it may need to do double duty, I thought I'd ask about it here. I'd likely be running it into an S-15D-X; my bass is a 3/4 carved w/a radio shack piezo buzzer into a K&K Pure preamp. I'm currently using an Eden WT-400 w/very pleasing results(for me, for DB). It's nice for BG too, I'm just flip-flopping on the tube vs SS(although the Eden has a tube pre)issue.
Bruce, I agree that most of the time the ideal BG & DB amps are two different species, & that may end up being the case here. But again, the D-180: low volume, EQed for the big bass... just wondering. Additionally, I am not neccesarily after 'my bass only louder'. I do have a very early-model Crate(go ahead & laugh)30-watt 1x12 combo that's is passable, so that's yet another option. I'm not getting any response in my search, so this all may be moot. Thanks again, everyone.

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by fradubio

Hi folks,
Particularly for bass, I don't see the tube tone as being one of distortion, but more the impact on compression that feels more organic than pedals or rack units. ...

Actually I would see that as just as bad if not worse - surely most DB players would want to control their own dynamics... ?

[Bruce Lindfield]

Originally Posted by bassteban

I'm currently using an Eden WT-400 w/very pleasing results(for me, for DB). It's nice for BG too, I'm just flip-flopping on the tube vs SS(although the Eden has a tube pre)issue.

I've had an Eden WT300 for many years (with EA VL208 cabs) and love it for BG and it worked fine for my EUB as well, adding some warmth (but made sure I avoided the compression factor...)

But in the last 18 months I have been trying to play the "real thing" and I find that the Eden amp is struggling to get the clarity and volume I want from my DB amped; whereas I have an EA iAmp that does the job very well - side by side using the same cabs - the EA outperforms the Eden noticably, which I wouldn't have believed 18 months ago, before I started playing real DB!!

[Jazzman]

I saw the Wood Brothers perform this weekend and Chris Wood was using an old flip-top. It sounded geat - one of the best bass sounds I have heard in a long time. Although, it was a large show, and I didn't see a mic in front of the amp.

I am assuming he uses this same amp for his jazz stuff.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Yeah - distorted, heavy, unreliable due to tubes blowing or running too hot - why on earth would you want one of these things if you could possibly avoid it - give me EA gear, any day!!

As one who has studied amplifier designs, restored tube circuits, and loves them as a hobby, I must agree completely. DB players usually specifically DO NOT want the frequency response anomalies and intentional distortion for which tube circuits are usually used. So, why carry around heavier, less reliable equipment?

A number of years ago, Bob Carver in the hi-fi end of things demonstrated rather convincingly that it's all in the transfer function. That is, a solid-state amp can be made to sound indistingushable from a tube amp.

The IEEE study cited in a previous post is a rather poor one from the standpoint of objective psychophysical technique. Then again, in musical performance situations one does not have laboratory conditions! Still, the study suggests what has been demonstrated a number of times before and what was the bottom line in the Carver demonstration. Specifically, that once the frequency response differences are taken into account, there is little else that is salient for which one must account.

[Ric Vice]

Originally Posted by Bruce Lindfield

Yeah - distorted, heavy, unreliable due to tubes blowing or running too hot - why on earth would you want one of these things if you could possibly avoid it - give me EA gear, any day!!

Now just for the record, let me state that I'm lucky to have two very nice Walter Woods Amplifers. For many years I used an Ampeg B-15 and, yes it was heavy, but I never had a problem with reliability or distortion with the B-15, provided that I played it at normal volume levels. Did it sound as good as the Woods with an EA speaker, no definitely not, but it sounded good.
Conversley, I know individual cases (tbers) where a EA iAmp had to be sent back several times for repairs. In EA's defense they made good on the problem each time, but that particular unit had some definite problems. In one situation, my B-15 once fell @6ft from the back of a stage and still played. In another I was playing outdoors and the juice wasn't adequate to power up the Walter Woods. but the B-15 worked fine. In these two particular situations a tube amplifer was
more reliable than it's modern counterpart.
That said, I agree with Bruce, you're better of with a AI, EA,GK, or a Walter Woods , unless you just love to bench press B-15's.

Ric

P.S.
My first Walter Woods (a MI-100-8 circa 1980) had a faulty switching
power supply when I first got it from Walter. He repaired it and turned it
around in 2 days! So even a Walter Woods can have problems. After 26 years of use that amp is still in service.

[tombowlus]

Normally, I would go with a nice, clean solid state amp for upright. But, if I were to be tempted to try an all-tube rig with upright, at this point it would be the Sadowsky SA200. That amp is just flat out great. In addition ot being full sounding and warm (in a good way), it is more detailed than many tube amps, and can be very quick, when EQ'd to be so. The Aguilar DB 359 would probably sound pretty good, too.

But yes, in general, I would go with a nice SS rig for upright.

Tom.

[bassteban]

Tom, you have a D-180(or at least once did); have you ever plugged a DB into it?

[tombowlus]

Originally Posted by bassteban

Tom, you have a D-180(or at least once did); have you ever plugged a DB into it?

No, I have not! Man, that would be bizarre. Overdriven upright madness, I tells ya!

[Mudfuzz]

I like that sound I get with both my tube amps, it's very close to the sound of my bass unplugged just bigger and louder; I like some SS amps a lot for DB and BG but I always end up liking what I already have best. For me the real test with DB through any amp is arco, if it can't do that well then keep looking.

[winston]

A couple years ago I did live sound for a swing/jump-blues big band whose bassist played an Underwood-equipped upright into a Mesa D-180 and Mesa 1x15 cab. It sounded great in the room (especially for slapping) and the XLR he sent me sounded good too. I had a Bass 400 that sounded great for BG but I sold it before I started playing upright.

Aside from rockabilly bands/old-timers I rarely see people using tube amps with upright. Especially busy pros and doublers in my area--it's enough to schlep a couple basses and they usually go the GK combo/AI/Polytone/Walter Woods + small cab route. In my DB life I always go for the smallest rig that will handle the gig, but that's not to say a nice tube rig wouldn't sound glorious!