Amp for Electric/Upright Bass

VincentPuleo · #1 05-29-2008, 07:47 PM

I play in the big band for the school and this past year sometimes I would get comments about not being loud enough... First I played out of a GK B2500 or something into a 15' GK cabinet... then a old model Hartke. I was unhappy with both, When raising to a volume I could be heard at the tone became unbearable ... did not sound like an Upright Bass.

I use a K & K Pure Pre amp with a K & K Bass Max pick up.

Can you guys give me some links or pictures to a amp that would be great for Electric and Upright bass.. with some power since I am play with a loud big band. I have a 62 fretless jazz bass, I don't know if that makes a difference but it is passive.

Also some links to a pick up or mic you guys feel would be better would be cool too, I really want to nail it this year and show the director I can sound decent.

Thanks

bolo · #2 05-29-2008, 09:16 PM

There are several similar threads to yours that try to cover this topic. For starters you might could try here. It links to more threads too.

What's your budget?

bolo · #3 05-29-2008, 09:23 PM

I wanted to ask too who says you're not loud enough? The band director?

VincentPuleo · #4 05-29-2008, 10:01 PM

Yes, the band director and some others in the audience... they can hear me its more of.. "you need to turn up", when I do that is sounds horrible

and as for price range anything

don't just post the most expensive thing but maybe some options?

Ric Vice · #5 05-30-2008, 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentPuleo

Yes, the band director and some others in the audience... they can hear me its more of.. "you need to turn up", when I do that is sounds horrible

and as for price range anything

don't just post the most expensive thing but maybe some options?

Vincent,
I don't want to dismiss your band directors and "other's" ears, but lots of very well intentioned musicians who don't play bass have a very biased view when it comes to listening to bass "objectively". IMHO you cannot drive the bass sound from the stage. It's much more effective to mic the bass for the house and a smaller amplifier to monitor yourself onstage. So, my question is, does the band have a P.A. large enough to send the upright into the mains.
If they don't, then the band has to be balanced across all sections, including the Rhythm Section. I can't tell you how many times I've seen High School big bands with mikes out the wazoo for the three horn sections and nothing but a amp on the bass. What I'm trying to say politely, is that everyone has to be in the mix or perhaps only the soloists should have microphones, or maybe even none at all!
Hard to say what your particular situation is, but I'll bet you that using a mic on the bass and running through the mains isn't something that has been considered.
I also think that we are now conditioned to expect student ensembles
to sound like they were mixed for a digital recording with every instrument having a discrete track that sounds like the THX theater mix of Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom.
Using an intelligent setup for the entire band allows you to have an amp as small as the GK MBS or MBE as a monitor sending the sound to the mains or as a slight boost to get the bass at the level of a non amplified balanced horn section.

Ric

Ric

bolo · #6 05-30-2008, 01:12 PM

This link is a good resource.

For portable combo amps, some of the more popular models these days for DB are made by GK, Acoustic Image, Markbass and SWR I think. For amplifiers (or heads), there are offerings from Acoustic Image, Euphonic Audio, GK and Markbass. And speaker cabs, there's Bergantino, Epifani, EA, Markbass, more. I know I've left stuff out.

But I guess I should also say you need a good acoustic sound to start w/ in order to get a good amplified sound, so you gotta think about that part too - the very front of the signal chain.

fingers · #7 05-30-2008, 01:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bolo

But I guess I should also say you need a good acoustic sound to start w/ in order to get a good amplified sound, so you gotta think about that part too - the very front of the signal chain.

Huge. HUGE. You should really get some guidance on this too. I know this is the TBDB mantra but a teacher can really help you get a big, fat tone out of your bass without hurting yourself.

I also wonder if your sound is horrible when you turn up if the pickup isn't the culprit. I have a bassmax that I use from time to time. I really dig it on one of my basses. I hate it on the other. I think that pickup sounds better on a meatier bridge with more space between the strings and the wing.

Personally I LOVE the Realist and have for 8+ years. When you start messing with pickups it is a serious can o' worms and everyone has a favorite.

bolo · #8 05-30-2008, 02:10 PM

What kind of amp and speaker are you working with now? We might could suggest things to make what you've got sound better. But talking about buying new stuff is cool too.

What part of the sound turns bad when you turn up the volume?

Do you listen to a lot of big band recordings and how they balance, especially live recordings? I assume your director does. I had to get ready for a big band concert recently. So I listened to Sinatra at the Sands w/ the Count Basie Orchestra about 6 or 7 times in the weeks leading up to the gig.

VincentPuleo · #9 05-30-2008, 02:13 PM

Yes, I have spent many hours with my teacher on getting a good tone out of my bass with no amplification... It can obviously be better but it definitely isn't the problem.

And Rick you nailed it with the comment about the highschool band... my director mic's the HUGE sax section and it is way to loud...
at diff
the thing is we go to many competitions different schools and I don't know the proccess of running a mic through a PA system in different situations.. can some explain what has to be done to me?

I am very interested in mics since they are definitely the best way to go.

I also have the realist... and it hasn't been working very well... once again this is due to the big band so I am very interested in looking into a mic

also I am purchasing a new bass (sorry for all these questions, haha) but how do you guys feel about KCStrings? my teacher has a little endorsment with them and I think I can one for a good price...

but again, my main issue is having a good amp for upright and electric... If I get a mic with a small amp aren't I going to need to play through a bigger amp to cut through?

VincentPuleo · #10 05-30-2008, 02:17 PM

Bolo,

I have a GK and a Hartke that is the schools I can use, but I am definitely selling them and getting a setup I am satisfied with... Im probably going to college for music and want to get it right this time so I don't need to buy new gear

and I have that album it is great!

When I turn up to much, it simply does not sound like an upright bass... unbearable amount of feeback and no definition to any note.

fingers · #11 05-30-2008, 03:43 PM

Unfortunately, if volume is the issue, a mic won't do you much good. They can be great if you have a ton of PA support. If you play through an amp you definitely have to have a group that is sensitive to how loud you are.

If you are willing to spend the cash Acoustic Image stuff is great. Great sound and they have a high pass filter which will help with the feedback issue. They will also accept a mic and come in one and two channel models. I never had much luck with the AI speakers but I have a Euphonic Audio Wizzy 12 M-Line and have been super happy. The only problem is the whole rig goes for about $1500+ new.

If you want cheaper there are lots of options. Also F-Decks high pass filter has been popular. I use a Fishman Platinum Pro when I am on tour and can't bring my own amp. It has a phase switch and hp filter which tames about any feedback problem I've had.

You have entered the trade-off zone however. Volume for tone. It is VERY hard to get both. I just decided one day that if I had to be stoopid loud I wanted my amplified tone to have a personality of its own. Not my bass only louder. My amplified tone.

Good luck on your journey.

Ric Vice · #12 05-30-2008, 03:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentPuleo

Yes,
And Rick you nailed it with the comment about the highschool band... my director mic's the HUGE sax section and it is way to loud...
at diff the thing is we go to many competitions different schools and I don't know the proccess of running a mic through a PA system in different situations.. can some explain what has to be done to me?

Vincent,
Well, I'd suggest reading the Talkbass Threads on Dynamic Mic's and the Explore Audio H Clamp. THese guys have convinced me that a Dynamic Mic with good rejection, properly placed, really does the trick and they aren't all that expensive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentPuleo

I also have the realist... and it hasn't been working very well... once again this is due to the big band so I am very interested in looking into a mic

I love the Realist, I have one, but it's really not a higher volume pickup. I'd look into the Fishman Full Circle. It sounds like the Realist and handles higher volume situations better.

Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentPuleo

also I am purchasing a new bass (sorry for all these questions, haha) but how do you guys feel about KCStrings? my teacher has a little endorsment with them and I think I can one for a good price...

Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentPuleo

but again, my main issue is having a good amp for upright and electric... If I get a mic with a small amp aren't I going to need to play through a bigger amp to cut through?

Well, not not necessarily, If you had a Focus III matched with the cabinet of your choice you could use the DI into the PA. Acoustic Image amps have the best onboard feedback control for Double Bass and the Focus is a very powerful amp. The two channel version would allow you to run both a pickup and a mic and send the mic to the board. After all, Dave Holland uses a GK MBE into a SWR 410 cabinet. Granted Dave Hollands' sound tech are probably a lot better than yours. But, It's really more about coverage onstage and projection from the stage through the mains. Unfortunately, although others may disagree IMHO it's not the best amplifier for Electric Bass. It's usually a compromise between what bass will sound the best with a particular amp. The Markbass Little Mark sounds great with Electric, but it's only a single channel amp, and has a 500k input impedance. There isn't a one size fits all amp thats inexpensive. The GK 150 actually sounds good with both instruments, but again it's a one channel amplifier. It would be really nice if GK made a two channel amp that had around 400 watts. The old 400RB worked great. I don't have any experience with the newer ones.

Ric

VincentPuleo · #13 05-30-2008, 07:29 PM

So... hmmm

I thought if I ran a mic through the PA it would be the loudest possible option? or at least cut through the most

I saw a great jazz band and the bass player had an acoustic Image head with a Bergintino cab I believe... would that be suitable for a electric as well?

that is my main issue I need to play both basses in one gig all year and cant bring 2 amps

Ric Vice · #14 05-30-2008, 08:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VincentPuleo

So... hmmm

I thought if I ran a mic through the PA it would be the loudest possible option? or at least cut through the most

I saw a great jazz band and the bass player had an acoustic Image head with a Bergintino cab I believe... would that be suitable for a electric as well?

that is my main issue I need to play both basses in one gig all year and cant bring 2 amps

Vincent,
From what you have written it sounds like you would need to
have an amp that favors the Double Bass. Bergantino cabinets will
work for both instruments. Running the bass through the mains is the best option for putting your bass out to the audience, as long as the engineer knows what they are doing. IMHO it works way better than a larger onstage amplifier. Plus the Focus has enough power to drive another cabinet if you would choose to do that.

Ric

VincentPuleo · #15 05-31-2008, 08:57 AM

Ight that sounds good,

I think I may o with an acoustic image head and a bergantino cabinet... what do you guys think is a good mic my situation?... once again sorry for all these questions but you guys are much educated then me.

I guess I can always have my realist or Bass Max as a back up if I cant run the mic through the PA

Ric Vice · #16 05-31-2008, 10:05 AM

Vincent,
There are a lot of choices that work well. What we found out was that a Shure Beta 57 worked really well and is pretty cheap.

http://www.shure.com/ProAudio/Produc...eta57A_content

There are tons of options. One thing is certain. To use a Dynamic the Acoustic Image is the logical choice because it has input connectors that accept the standard 3 pin mic cord without using an adaptor and the Notch/Lo Cut Filters tame feedback. It also has a "real DI" to send the signal to the board and into the mains.

I use the Explore Audio H Clamp to mount the mic on the bass. It's relatively inexpensive and well made.

http://www.exploraudio.com/productde...?pid=11&vid=18

Giancarlo on Talkbass has a very nice simple mic mount, it's not commercially available but here is what it looks like.

Bridge clamp

Ric

VincentPuleo · #17 05-31-2008, 12:12 PM

Ok, I am starting to understand more now...

I am having so many questions because I need to order the amp, there are no acoustic image dealers around me.

So I see the Contra, the combo... That would be great for me will it be loud enough...

(keep in mind, I am playing in a rather loud big band)

1. Would the Contra be suitable for electric and DB with a bass max or realist?

2. Can I run a mic into the Contra? would that be a better choice?

3. Would a Clarus be a better choice combined with an EA or Bergantino (I have concluded those are 2 great cabinets combined with the AI) Which combination would be more suitable for both instruments?

4. I notice there is Clarus 1 and 2 but the Clarus 2 is a couple hundred more dollars, worth it?

5. But in the end of it all is putting a mic infront of my amp and running it through the PA system the best choice?

I promise these are the last of my questions!

VincentPuleo · #18 06-01-2008, 10:17 PM

Peck_Time · #19 06-02-2008, 06:27 AM

Alright I'll try to help.

1. Would the Contra be suitable for electric and DB with a bass max or realist?

---Depends on the sound you want to hear. I like the AI combos for upright and slab, but many people prefer a different sound for slab.

2. Can I run a mic into the Contra? would that be a better choice?

---Depends on the sound you want to hear. If you want 'my bass only louder', then IMO a microphone is going to get you closer than a pickup

3. Would a Clarus be a better choice combined with an EA or Bergantino (I have concluded those are 2 great cabinets combined with the AI) Which combination would be more suitable for both instruments?

---IMO, A Clarus with an EA cab is a great combination for upright and slab. I haven't heard Bergantino.

4. I notice there is Clarus 1 and 2 but the Clarus 2 is a couple hundred more dollars, worth it?

---I don't know your situation, but if you need to blend or double it's very helpful.

5. But in the end of it all is putting a mic infront of my amp and running it through the PA system the best choice?

---No, but putting a mic in front of your bass and running that through a good sound man with a good PA could be the best choice.

I promise these are the last of my questions!

---Questions are good, do some more research here (there are tons of threads about mics/ pickups etc), and ask some more!

bolo · #20 06-02-2008, 07:11 AM

1. Would the Contra be suitable for electric and DB with a bass max or realist?

-- I had an older Series I Contra. I loved the sound, but I found the sound wasn't always optimal for me and for my gigging situations. The latest version (Series III) is better from all I've read. More power, more features, capable of a tighter sound.

2. Can I run a mic into the Contra? would that be a better choice?

-- Yes, you can run a mic straight into the AI heads and combos. I blend a pickup and a mic using a the 2 channel Focus. I used to think the mic was only for quieter gigs. But now I use it even on big band jobs.

3. Would a Clarus be a better choice combined with an EA or Bergantino (I have concluded those are 2 great cabinets combined with the AI) Which combination would be more suitable for both instruments?

-- Like I said I've used the Contra (older Series I) and determined that an AI head w/ a front-firing speaker works better for me. I have a Wizzy M-line now. And yes your conclusion is sound. Bergs and EAs are well thought of in this fourm. Keep reading and enjoy.

4. I notice there is Clarus 1 and 2 but the Clarus 2 is a couple hundred more dollars, worth it?

-- IMO, yes, since you've mentioned DB and EB, and also for blending a mic and a p/u.

5. But in the end of it all is putting a mic infront of my amp and running it through the PA system the best choice?

-- Same as Peck_Time. A mic to the PA will give the most natural sound to the audience. Under the right conditions it can go as loud out front as you would ever need it to be. Running a mic into your amp onstage is great for hearing a more natural tone but it has its limitations volume-wise.

And don't worry about asking a lot of questions.