Another AI story

[francisluyten]

Hello Double Bassists,
A few days ago i bougt a SH Acoustic Image Contra IIa combo. Finding a second hand AI is not that easy here in Belgium, so i found myself very lucky !
I did a lot of testing and trying at home and i really liked the sound coming out of it. It just matches my style and bass setup.
Yesterday evening i finally could test it in a "close to real life" situation. Our rehealsal room is quite big and a little on the dry side (acoustics of a crouded club ???). Guess what... It wasn't capable to team up with the other instruments. Both gain and master on 12 'o' clock and the woofer went buzzing.
Now, the guy who owns the rehearsal room collects all kinds of monitors, PA speakers and stuff. We plugged one of the floor monitors (a cheap Beringher) into the AI with the combo speaker plugged out. This was something else ! the AI's amp section is really good, that's for sure ! Our experiments even got further...
This guy walked in with an old Technics (50$) integrated HIFI amp. We went thru the phono input of that amp and thru the same monitor. The differences between this (really cheap !!!)setup and the one with the AI (yes, very expensive indeed) were hardly noticeable !!!
Conclusion :
When AI (and other high-end brands) build their amps to HIFI specs (linear curve) and most people leave the EQ flat, i don't see why we would pay our asses off for only a fancy box with a brand name on it.
Regards to all of you,

Francis Luyten
Belgium

[drurb]

Originally Posted by francisluyten

...Now, the guy who owns the rehearsal room collects all kinds of monitors, PA speakers and stuff. We plugged one of the floor monitors (a cheap Beringher) into the AI with the combo speaker plugged out. This was something else ! the AI's amp section is really good, that's for sure ! Our experiments even got further...
This guy walked in with an old Technics (50$) integrated HIFI amp. We went thru the phono input of that amp and thru the same monitor. The differences between this (really cheap !!!)setup and the one with the AI (yes, very expensive indeed) were hardly noticeable !!!

Let me see if I have this right. An old Technics integrated amp feeding a Behringer floor monitor was no better than an AI combo. What was the wattage on that Technics amp? If it was adequate then, yes, there is no reason why its power-amp section would not be just fine. As for the Behringer monitor matching the AI cabinet, well............

Of course, I wasn't there in that particular room but I wonder what would happen in other rooms. If your judgment would hold in other rooms, then I'd say that if this doesn't speak to personal preference, I don't know what does. I'd also say that you should not spend money on anything more "fancy." I still would.

While I do find the prices of some of our favorite equipment somewhat inflated, that's what often happens in a specialty market. Sure, I could replace my iamp200 with a nice older used hi-fi power amp. Then I'd need an appropriate pre-amp that incorporates the customary connections, signal path switching, and that has useful tone controls for amplifying my DB. I'd probably save substantial bucks and be carrying around multiple pieces of equipment of greater weight connected by a rat's nest of wires. I'll take the convenience.

To each his own.

[wingnut]

You have learned the lesson we all sometimes learn, just because you pay a lot for it that doesn't make it good. It just makes it expensive...

[francisluyten]

Hi drurb,
No, no ,drurb, the difference between the AI powering the Beringher monitor and the Technics integrated powering the same monitor weren't hardly noticeable (in favour of the Technics amp)
Ofcourse, i would not carry around with a HIFI amp to amplify my bass, but that's not my statement.
Don't we all spend too much time on struggling with our "sound" than do some practicing ?
All i want to state is simple : if an old HIFI amp and a (lower end) floor monitor can amplify our bass in such a way that it is highly sufficient for the job, why spend such an amount on HIGH-END amps and cabinets to fulfill our needs. The difference is (in my case) hardly noticeable...
If you would hear (for instance) Christian McBride playing on a Chinese plywood bass over a HIFI amp and a Beringher floor monitor, don't you think it would blow your socks off ???
And yeah, to each his own.
And yes, i like those "fancy" boxes with brand names on it too. But keep your eyes open ! all of these manufacturers have the BEST and the BEST solution for you, to make you a BETTER bass player and finally get all you deserve !!!
Regards,
Francis

[francisluyten]

Hi friends,
How do i edit my profile ? When i clic your username, i get all your personal details. When i click mine it only says "male"...

[bolo]

Click on My TalkBass in the upper left corner of your screen, then Edit Profile.

[francisluyten]

Thanks Steve,
It's Fixed !

[drurb]

Originally Posted by francisluyten

Hi drurb,
No, no ,drurb, the difference between the AI powering the Beringher monitor and the Technics integrated powering the same monitor weren't hardly noticeable (in favour of the Technics amp)
Ofcourse, i would not carry around with a HIFI amp to amplify my bass, but that's not my statement.
Don't we all spend too much time on struggling with our "sound" than do some practicing ?
All i want to state is simple : if an old HIFI amp and a (lower end) floor monitor can amplify our bass in such a way that it is highly sufficient for the job, why spend such an amount on HIGH-END amps and cabinets to fulfill our needs. The difference is (in my case) hardly noticeable...
If you would hear (for instance) Christian McBride playing on a Chinese plywood bass over a HIFI amp and a Beringher floor monitor, don't you think it would blow your socks off ???
And yeah, to each his own.
And yes, i like those "fancy" boxes with brand names on it too. But keep your eyes open ! all of these manufacturers have the BEST and the BEST solution for you, to make you a BETTER bass player and finally get all you deserve !!!
Regards,
Francis

I really don't think we basically disagree. On the other hand, for me, an old hi-fi amp and a floor monitor probably would not satisfy me. The difference, for me, would be quite noticeable.
McBrides playing through a pocket-sized AM radio would blow might blow my socks off because of his technique. I still would wish for a better sound.

Still, your point is well-taken. Many would do well to focus more upon the playing itself. As I stated, I think much of the equipment we like is overpriced but that seems to be the result of where market forces have set the price of equipment that does what we want.

If you look over this forum in any depth, I think you might find that I would be one of the last players to be fooled by manufacturers' claims. I do keep my eyes and ears open.

[Mark Perna]

I'm still not giving up my Focus and AI cabinets. I've gone through a dozen amps/cabinet combinations in the last 20 years and this is, by far, there is no comparison, the best for me. It's easily transportable, rugged and sounds great. And given all of that, it isn't really THAT expensive compared other high end gear. And since I know it is great, I'm not really looking for anything else so I do spend all of my time practicing.

mark

[Pat Harris]

What I've noticed with my SIII Contra is that it also cannot really compete with loud bands or even a big band in a big hall without PA reinforcement. That said, as I understand it, it was never designed to really push hard and cut through. It's just really accurate hi-fi reproduction. It's great for rehearsals though, and for gigs where a PA is in use. The direct out sounds fantastic so you can be pushing some serious air through the mains and using the combo as a stage monitor. I also found that if I connect my Goliath 4x10 as an extension cab I have WAYY more than enough power to play in a full rock band setting without the use of a PA. Plus, the combo is still lighter than the head that I would normally put on top of my stack. Obviously, to each his own.

-Pat

[neal davis]

I can hear what francis is saying the best sound I've ever gotten from an amp was when I used my bryston power amp running mono with one of my magnepan speakers for my home stereo, with a schertler dynb and pre amp. it sounded just like my bass but louder great for rehersal at my home but if I was to carry all this crap around it just wouldn't make sense.

[musicman5string]

.

[Silversorcerer]

There is some value in this post I think if someone needs to cobble together a good sounding budget amplification rig in a pinch. I know a guitarist who was using an old tape (reel to reel) machine for its' pre-amp circuit (tube) and was getting a really nice vintage tone. It was kind of strange though to see these sprockets and reels spinning with no tape on them because the pre was only in the circuit when the switch was turned to "play". Kind of unique for a guitar amp. He performed with that rig and used some kind of yard sale speaker cab with it also. I think the whole thing was priced at "haul it off and it's yours". There's some value in that because any use one gets from it is straight gravy.

So it's nice to know there are budget alternatives, but if you can come up with the $$ for a nicely tailored to needs rig, the AI stuff is well worth it. In most cases for any tool there is, there is a nearly free alternative that is serviceable if not convenient. To answer the question as to why we pay a great deal for that is because convenience in use has a great deal of value. It's not just the "fancy box". That would be cosmetic and style. It's the tailored functions. Like the sweepable notch, the phantom powered circuit, the versatile inputs, two channels, light weight integrated design, and somewhere way down the list is that it is a cool professional looking box.

So Francis, you aren't going to sell your rare AI rig and use the Technics amp are you?

[Vunz]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

Some of the Glockenklang gear is very close to hifi. Vunz used to use a Bass Art Classic Head (40 lbs.) with Glock Acoustic Art cabinets; and then he switched to a small pre and a Lab Gruppen power amp; and now he is using the pre with flying mole 100w power amps, (1.5 lb each), mounted to the Glock cabinets. So, in his case the battle for weight altered his approach over time. Although he maintains that the sound quality is still very good.
Jim

Just a minor comment: initially, I did not sell the Glock amp because of its weight, but because I started to play with a mic only, which forced me to abandon the Glock (that does not sport a mic input) and buy a dedicated mic preamp. The power amp I originally chose (the Lab Gruppen), was selected because of its sound quality (and because it didn't have a fan). The Flying Moles I now use, I bought for their light weight. Somehow, I felt that the Lab Gruppen, although not the heaviest amp in the world, looked a bit out of place in an amplified acoustic setting. The Flying Moles are almost invisible - about the size of a cigar box. Yet, I made sure that I would not made any concessions regarding sound quality (the Moles are used in the studio monitors made by PMC). And indeed, they sound fantastic!

Cheers,
Vincent

[peterpalmieri]

Originally Posted by jsbarber

Peter Palmeri is using the Glock Heart Rock (40 lbs) for doubling.

So it seems you can get hifidelity bass-specific equipment, but it still tends to be heavy and what I'm familiar with doesn't have all of the features that the AI gear has. (HP filters, 2 channels, mic and instrument inputs, DI , ...)

Jim

I guess I should chime in....I am not suprised first about the AI combo as they seem to be "love 'em or hate 'em" type gear. Secondly about HiFi stereo type gear I think everyone agrees that be it bass specific or not there are plenty of cheap options that get the job done well.

I personally will pay a premium for only marginally better as that is my nature but to each his own. It also goes to my on going point that you NEED to try gear before purchasing it, if everyone had the same likes or there was one amp that was the DB amp there would only be one, that is obviously not the case.

One of my favorite local players who I also took lessons from for a long time is always piecing together some old second hand stuff and always seems to knock my socks off.

Now to address my signature (see below) and everyones thought that we should spend less time chatting and more time practicing...I agree with the caviate that I cannot practice my bass in the office and tend not to hang around TB when I am home and can practice, I think that is the case for many....but not all!

I love the Glock Heart Rock and NL210 combo partly because of JSBarbers guidance and my own experience. I also know it makes for a killer stereo to play an IPod or CD through so it works both ways.

[francisluyten]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

So Francis, you aren't going to sell your rare AI rig and use the Technics amp are you?

Well, Silver...
You're right, I might keep the AI for a while...
It would be rediculous to put a Technics Integrated HIFI amp on stage but i'm shure you all get the point.
I'm seriously thinking about building my own amp from parts that i already have.
I can dismantle my old Alesis MicroEQ (parametric EQ + preamp) and a DI-box and put them into a new housing. A powered monitor will do the rest. Or build a mono poweramp into that same housing. As long it has linear aplification and some power it will be OK. I don't know yet... Before we start argueing about DIY and its cost : there's a chance that the homebuilt amp is gonna cost too much compared to commercial products ! I'm aware of that !
Something for the long winter evenings maybe ??? ( = less studying )
If something comes out I will post the pictures !

[Silversorcerer]

Don't get me wrong here Francis and I'm trying not to get you wrong either. Yours is a rather "artistic" approach to getting a good sounding amp and even as a very pleased AI owner, I applaud what you are doing. I don't read it as an attempt to denigrate the AI products as some might. When I think about what the audience must have thought when my friend set up that tape machine with its' "invisible reels" spinning and no tape and had this awesome tube sound, it could only be called performance art. That fellow rebuilt my 1972 JMP-50 Marshall, so he knew exactly what he was doing with the tape machine pre-amp. Incidentally the JMP-50 is the result of Jim Marshall building his guitarist (Jim was a drummer!!) an imitation of a Fender bassman 50 because Fenders were expensive and hard to come by in England. He used surplus WWII military grade radio components. The tube sockets came from the USA in some cases, even in the older original Marshalls. Frequently the company changed specs during production because one surplus part ran out and they substituted other surplus parts. This is why two Marshalls built the same year often have different circuit board parts. They built them from what was cheaply available. And if you consider that he was a jazz drummer, that is somewhat poetic really. He was an "improvisational" amplifier designer! Ironically, Marshalls became difficult to get in England because the company had trouble supplying American demand, which it had to fulfill first because of a bad contract with Unicord, the American distributor. At one point, the parts were so hard to get that repairmen in the USA often substituted Fender parts into the Marshalls instead of the English equivalents! When I had mine restored, it had American parts stuck here and there all over the circuit board;- and still does.

Obviously you have gone to a greater expense and trouble to enjoy the AI amp than I have, so you must have an appreciation of "fancy boxes" also. And I likewise have an appreciation for reusing, recycling, improvising with existing equipment, whatever you want to call it, so mutual respect is acknowledged. Whatever it costs you in time, effort, etc., you will gain a great understanding of what the electronics is doing. If it doesn't take too much away from your practice time, it will be well worth it.

If we look at the historically great bass amplifier builders, I think we would find that electronics geniuses were outnumbered by tinkering musicians and amateur HAM radio enthusiasts. Perhaps you can found a European competitor to AI and make it easier to get a nice "fancy box" on your side of the pond. More power (Watts) to you!