AUDIO TECHNICA PRO 35 / LIVE

[darksail]

Hello to all,
I'm using by some months a mic AUDIO TECHNICA PRO 35.
I'm driving it with a little 2 channel mixer to a powered speaker.
I'm really happy about the sound, but I can't definitely reach an high level of volume.

It is probably the natural limit of using only a microphone on live performace,
but I want to ask you an opinion about it.
Do you think that I could solve this problem and how?

Thanks in advance to all

[bolo]

Do you get feedback from the mic at higher volumes? Is that the key problem? Or is it distortion from the amp / speakers or something else?

And that mic is a clip-on type, yes?

[darksail]

yes, It's a little condeser clip-on.

And yes, the problem is that feedback on higher volume...
Maybe should I cut some frequencies...?

[Co.]

I use the Audio Technica ATM 35. The placement is very important, not only for sound, but also for how early you get feedback. If you place the mic to a spot on the bass with a very strong resonace, you will get feedback at that frequency pretty soon, and you definetly get a very uneven sound. Or are you talking about that high frequency feedback, usually associated with singers?

[darksail]

Yes I do...
(hey guys... you're reading my mind)
Where do you precisely put the mic?

[candyman]

Good morning all,
This is what I have found to be the case when miking an upright bass in a live situation. First thing to look at is how many other players are miking their instruments, are they using Dynamic or condenser microphones? How close are the microphones to each other? How loud do you really need to be in order to be heard? What is the stage like ( big hollow riser?). Wnere are the monitors ( if any) positioned. I have used a L/C Sure KSM about a foot away from the bridge, but could never get enough volume out of the system in order to keep the monitors from feeding back or get the bass into the mix enough to be heard. So what I use now is an old E.V. RE20..a dynamic microphone. Not as nice a sound as a condenser microphone...but if no one can hear it what's the point.
K.L.

[larry]

Dynamics tend to not feedback as quickly as condensers. therefore you will get more volume from one. I also think they sound just a good. You will need a preamp. There has to be enough gain.

Make sure your amp or monitor are several feet away. I put my amp about 10 feet away. I can hear it much better than if it were closer, and I can turn up really loud with just a mic and no pickup.

A lot of guys want to mount the mic on the bass. I think it sounds better a little further away on a stand. You just have to watch where you set up and make sure the mic is not pointing at the drums behind you or something.

I'm using just a mic (with a drummer) and it's working great. Certain situations may cause the need for a pickup, but they are rare.

[Co.]

Originally Posted by darksail

Yes I do...
(hey guys... you're reading my mind)
Where do you precisely put the mic?

I clamp it on my Balsereit Pickup. The gooseneck goes through the bridge feet upwards and the mike points on the top, as close as possible to the wood. When miking that close, it is especially important, where the exact placement is, because of top resonance. It always takes a few minutes to get it right.

When you mike an instrument on stage, you always have to maximize the volume of the source you are miking, compared to the volume of the amp the signal is coming out of.
It helps to mike very close, what I do, and have a very loud instrument, which I have, and to have the amp several meters away, which I don't do. Most of the time I stand in front of my amp, so that the first thing you hear is the unaltered sound of my instrument, not the amped sound. And having your bass and body between mike and amp, reduces high frequency a lot. And rolling off the treble/switching horns of might be a good idea.

[Silversorcerer]

Feedback can be a very difficult problem to deal with. I used to have all kinds of problems with that, even using only a piezo type pick-up.

Lately, I've gotten it down to a minor and infrequent aggravation using a very nice miniature condenser. Condensers are not generally worse than dynamics, IMO. It is just that most condensers are omi-directional and most common dynamic mics are cardioid (focused) pick-up pattern. As long as your mic is cardioid pick-up pattern it should perform as well as a cardioid dynamic mic.

Things I have found helpful:

Put the mic as close as possible to the top of the bass. Under the bridge or under the fingerboard works well. I haven't found that putting it out from the bass is better. It might work if you have an acre for a stage, but mostly you will just get all kind of other stuff and possibly room noise mixed in with your bass.

Do not run the bass signal though any stage monitors if you have those.

Put your speakers out in front of you if possible;- as Larry suggested, farther away is better.

Parametric EQ. Some amps have something like this built in and so do some PA systems. Essentially you find the offending frequency and cut a "notch" out to kill the feed back. On a graphic EQ you need several individual bands to do as well, but you can still get close if you have something like 10 bands;- 30 gives you much finer selectivity.

Phase reversal. This is the secret weapon. If you can get an amp or gadget that reverses the phase of the speakers from the phase of the vibrating bass top, this one little trick will knock out the worst big WOOOOM type of feed back.

There is an American made amp (probably difficult to get in Italy, but it would be worth trying), the Acoustic Image Coda R series III, that has many of these features included in such a way that they are very easy to use. It is sort of like a two channel PA within a combo cab (they also offer separate amp heads) that is extremely versatile and designed with amping DB in mind. If you really like using a microphone alone, I suggest you try to find one of these. For me it was the "silver bullet" against feedback.

[larry]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Put the mic as close as possible to the top of the bass. Under the bridge or under the fingerboard works well. I haven't found that putting it out from the bass is better. It might work if you have an acre for a stage, but mostly you will just get all kind of other stuff and possibly room noise mixed in with your bass.

While the bleed issue is certainly true, you have to balance that with the fact that the closer the mic gets to the bass, the less natural the sound, usually.

Mic-users should try plugging your mic into a mixer or something that you can plug headphones into while you play. Move the mic around until you find where it sounds best (I guarantee it's not going to be in the first few inches near the body of the bass). Where it sounds best is where you should aim to put it - and only get closer in if you're hearing other instruments coming from your amp.

If you still don't have success, try some different mics and work on getting a louder acoustic sound.

[Silversorcerer]

Originally Posted by larry

While the bleed issue is certainly true, you have to balance that with the fact that the closer the mic gets to the bass, the less natural the sound, usually.

Mic-users should try plugging your mic into a mixer or something that you can plug headphones into while you play. Move the mic around until you find where it sounds best (I guarantee it's not going to be in the first few inches near the body of the bass). Where it sounds best is where you should aim to put it - and only get closer in if you're hearing other instruments coming from your amp.

If you still don't have success, try some different mics and work on getting a louder acoustic sound.

Great advice;- that is if you are recording the bass. It you look at my suggestions for recording mic positions, they are similar, but that is a different thread. Playing live is a bit different from recording. Even with a cardioid 2 inches off the top, I still get audible bleed from vocals several feet away. And that is as good as it gets because even the top of the bass reflects the sounds around it. It's a fine balance and not all mics are the same, but a tiny condenser like the AT pro 35 with the clip on is designed for close mic situations. Now if we are opening the floor to all other types of mics, ... but that is why we have threads and not just one huge cloth here.

[larry]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Great advice;- that is if you are recording the bass. It you look at my suggestions for recording mic positions, they are similar, but that is a different thread. Playing live is a bit different from recording.

If the mic sounds good in that spot, that's the sound I want to amplify. If other instruments bleed in, I position myself and my bass the best I can to minimize it. A little bleed is harmless anyway. Feedback is the real problem.

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Even with a cardioid 2 inches off the top, I still get audible bleed from vocals several feet away. And that is as good as it gets because even the top of the bass reflects the sounds around it.

That's one loud singer. I can set up 3 feet from the drums as long as I point the mic away.

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

It's a fine balance and not all mics are the same, but a tiny condenser like the AT pro 35 with the clip on is designed for close mic situations. Now if we are opening the floor to all other types of mics, ... but that is why we have threads and not just one huge cloth here.

Re-reading my post I did get off-topic pretty quick. It's just that I've tried a couple of clip on condensers, including the AT. I had similar problems as the OP. Things vastly improved when I switched to dynamic mics (and a good preamp). I though he might want to know that.

Have fun.

[darksail]

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Put the mic as close as possible to the top of the bass. Under the bridge or under the fingerboard works well.

yes I actually do this

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Do not run the bass signal though any stage monitors if you have those.

I dont' understand this one. I normally use this pow.speaker to amplify the bass: http://www.fbt.it/Inglese/pae/speake...12R-/index.asp
and it's enough for all the other musicians.
But sometimes someone ask to hear me trough his monitor too... How can I refuse?

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Put your speakers out in front of you if possible;- as Larry suggested, farther away is better.

yes I actually do this

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

Parametric EQ. Some amps have something like this built in and so do some PA systems. Essentially you find the offending frequency and cut a "notch" out to kill the feed back. On a graphic EQ you need several individual bands to do as well, but you can still get close if you have something like 10 bands;- 30 gives you much finer selectivity.
Phase reversal. This is the secret weapon. If you can get an amp or gadget that reverses the phase of the speakers from the phase of the vibrating bass top, this one little trick will knock out the worst big WOOOOM type of feed back.

Mmm... on my little mixer I have a couple of bands... probably unusuful.
And I did not have that phase reversal.
Maybe a real Microphone Preamp could help?

Originally Posted by Silversorcerer

There is an American made amp (probably difficult to get in Italy, but it would be worth trying), the Acoustic Image Coda R series III, (...) For me it was the "silver bullet" against feedback.

Yes I know it, and It's used in Italy too. Just too expansive for me...

Then, I've tried some dyn mics. I think that are more feedB resistant, but you cen get less volume than condensers...
This small AudioT it's the best mic I've used. It only would need just a bit more of volume...

[Silversorcerer]

Well, it sounds like you are doing everything you can. You might tell the player that wants you in his monitor to turn down and then he'll be able to hear you without the monitor because then you might be able to turn up some.

That looks like a good speaker system that you are using. It looks very similar to the powered Mackies that are popular.

If all else fails, a piezo pickup mixed in might help boost your volume. I use one of these as a last resort when I need to get louder than the mic allows.