Benefit of a direct box?

[us_soccer]

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find much on the newbie links about this...

I use a KK Bass Max on my upright and have that going directly to an amp. It generally does fine, though sometimes when I need to increase volume to a certain level to get it above the drums, there will be a bit of feedback and noise. Not horrible, but the sound quality sometimes suffers a bit.

Would a direct box (DI) be beneficial? What exactly would this do for me?

Thanks in advance.

[adbass]

The key is to get DI/preamp. Very common. Fishman sells em.

The benefit of a pre-amp would be that you boost the signal that the amp gets from the pickup, so you don't have to turn the amp up as much to get the volume you need, thus reducing feedback. Also, with a product like the fishman, you have notch filtering, phase flipping, etc that also aid in reducing and/or eliminating feedback.

The DI part of the unit allows for sending an XLR out signal to the soundboard, so you can send that boosted pickup signal into the house PA system to support the volume you're getting from the amp.

That's my understanding anyway.

[Jake deVilliers]

As an alternative the F-Deck Pre (made by a fellow TalkBasser) has in addition an adjustable high pass filter that really helps to take the mud out of your sound. Its a great way to condition your sound.

[us_soccer]

Thanks --
So, is it the case that the DI unit itself (without pre-amp) does nothing when simply put in between the pickup and the amp (without PA system)?

[adbass]

yup. but what's the point of that? just to get an XLR-out? Doesn't your amp have a built in DI?

[Bob Gollihur]

Originally Posted by us_soccer

Forgive me if this has been discussed before, but I couldn't find much on the newbie links about this...

I use a KK Bass Max on my upright and have that going directly to an amp. It generally does fine, though sometimes when I need to increase volume to a certain level to get it above the drums, there will be a bit of feedback and noise. Not horrible, but the sound quality sometimes suffers a bit.

Would a direct box (DI) be beneficial? What exactly would this do for me?

Thanks in advance.

I'd want to know what you're playing through, first; completing your profile is a good idea so we can answer more completely/accurately.

When you are at the limit of what the amp and/or speaker can produce, things get ugly, and adding other pre-amp devices won't necessarily help. If you are at the amp's edge, rolling the bass back a bit may help with volume at the sacrifice of lows that may or may not be necessary. Doing the usual things like moving the amp to a better location to avoid feedback may also help.

[kwd]

When DI/preamps are discussed in this forum, HPFs, notch filters and phase inverters are usually mentioned as valuable features. I'd like to add that if your amp does not have a limiter, you may want to consider a unit with that feature. I was listening to a recording of myself playing in a trio. When I started to get enthusiastic the sound got really bad. I remember being frustrated at the gig when this happened. What I thought was feedback for so long wasn't feedback but distortion caused by too much gain or high output at the source. A unit with a gain control -in addition to an output control- and a limiter can help in this area.

I've only heard good things about the fdeck unit. I use an ART Tube Instrument Preamp. I keep the gain down for a cleaner sound and crank up the output.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by adbass

...The benefit of a pre-amp would be that you boost the signal that the amp gets from the pickup, so you don't have to turn the amp up as much to get the volume you need, thus reducing feedback.

Actually, such a scheme would not help at all with feedback. Feedback occurs as a result of the interaction between the pickup and the acoustical signal at or reflected from the speaker.

[Jason Hollar]

I still have my eye on the new Radial PZ-Pre. Seems to have a wealth of features for blending, EQ, gain, DI, etc.

However, Bob is right -- you might need a beefier amp rig to push with the drummer.

What kinda amp ya got?

[adbass]

Originally Posted by drurb

Actually, such a scheme would not help at all with feedback. Feedback occurs as a result of the interaction between the pickup and the acoustical signal at or reflected from the speaker.

so it's more a matter of how you position the bass relative to the speaker? I don't know, I rarely deal with feedback.

[us_soccer]

Thanks all for the advice.
Bob, you're probably right that it may be my amp that's the limiting factor. I'm also a keyboard player and I actually have been using my keyboard amp as an amp for my bass too.

It's a Roland KC150 60-Watt amplifier (yikes... I know, perhaps it's my amp that's just not powerful enough).

But on most gigs when I'm using the bass and it doesn't need to amplified too much, it actually sounds ok. But when the bass needs to be pumped up with significantly more volume, it doesn't sound as good.

I'm using Bob's KK Bass Max, and running that directly into the Roland Amp -- generally, there's no PA system in the places I play.

Maybe a pre-amp wouldn't be helpful in this case.

[Bob Gollihur]

Originally Posted by us_soccer

Thanks all for the advice.
Bob, you're probably right that it may be my amp that's the limiting factor. I'm also a keyboard player and I actually have been using my keyboard amp as an amp for my bass too.

It's a Roland KC150 60-Watt amplifier (yikes... I know, perhaps it's my amp that's just not powerful enough).

But on most gigs when I'm using the bass and it doesn't need to amplified too much, it actually sounds ok. But when the bass needs to be pumped up with significantly more volume, it doesn't sound as good.

I'm using Bob's KK Bass Max, and running that directly into the Roland Amp -- generally, there's no PA system in the places I play.

Maybe a pre-amp wouldn't be helpful in this case.

That is likely the answer; 60 watts just isn't enough to handle most URB duties. That big attack when playing pizz is probably going splat when the amp hits its limit.

I don't know the amp's input impedance specs, but you can also determine if it will deliver the most favorable tone. See my Do you need a preamp FAQ at http://www.gollihurmusic.com/faq.cfm. But I think we can confidently say that you're hitting the amp's ceiling.

However, if you want to continue to use it... I would still suggest turning the bass control back a bit. If the amp has two controls, such as one input volume and also a master volume, you may also want to turn the input volume back a little if that's the control you were turning up. The Bass Max is a hot pickup and there is always the potential (with any pickup) to overload the preamp and get ugly artifacts.

[Jason Hollar]

Although the Roland amps are great for keys -- they stink for bass. My buddy used to have one of the 15's which was killer on his keyboard, but a total dog on my upright.

There's no way a 60 watt would cut it on a medium volume gig.

[us_soccer]

Thanks, Bob.
Then one more question: what would be the minimum wattage that you might recommend for at least medium sized gigs?
If I were to buy a separate amp for my bass, I'd like to stay fairly low budget -- can I get anything decent for about $300-$400 new? or would I really need to look at used at that price?

[JimmyM]

It all depends on your band's volume level. But the average minimum for non-PA gigs hovers around 200-300w. And you would have to look at used to get something in your price range that's worth a crap. The good news is there are a lot of 200 and 300w combos that would work for you that sell for $300-400 used. Keep an eye out here and on the BG side, and also check Craigslist. Seen a lot of good deals on used combos.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by adbass

so it's more a matter of how you position the bass relative to the speaker? I don't know, I rarely deal with feedback.

Basically, yes.

[Bob Gollihur]

Originally Posted by us_soccer

Thanks, Bob.
Then one more question: what would be the minimum wattage that you might recommend for at least medium sized gigs?
If I were to buy a separate amp for my bass, I'd like to stay fairly low budget -- can I get anything decent for about $300-$400 new? or would I really need to look at used at that price?

I concur with Jimmy, I personally prefer not to go out the door with anything less than 200-300 watts. And factor in the speaker, too, as more efficient cabs will deliver higher output levels for the same wattage. It would seem that used would be necessary given your budget; even though its wattage is lower, I've always been impressed with the SWR Workingman's 12 (not the current model, I have no experience with it).

It all, of course, depends on the type of gig and volumes expected. Sometimes an amp isn't even necessary.

I'd search and browse some of the threads here, I know there have been those with similar needs for volume/$$.

Good luck in your quest.

[drurb]

Originally Posted by Bob Gollihur

...And factor in the speaker, too, as more efficient cabs will deliver higher output levels for the same wattage.

This is the pearl of wisdom in Bob's post. As I always say, think SPL (sound pressure level), not watts! Look here, for example. That being said, given even the most efficient of cabs with desired power handling capacity, it does work out that 200-300 watts is, in fact, the goal for the minimum. As usual, Bob is right on target. Just keep in mind that every doubling of power into a given cab (all other things being equal), gains you only 3 dB. The bottom line is that it is SPL that you are after, not watts, per se.

Consider a related example. We are used to buying light bulbs by wattage. We expect a bulb that draws 75 watts to be brighter than one drawing 60 watts and so on. We are really interested in brightness so we should be buying based on lumens (light output), not watts. When there was a pretty fixed relation between the two, it just didn't matter much. Now, along come compact fluorescents. Hmm. A bulb that draws 18 watts is brighter than one drawing 60 watts! Now people are used to looking at the lumen spec. Well, guess what? There never was a more or less fixed relation between watts and SPL in the amp and speaker world. As a result, many folks made some unfortunate choices (often helped along by some crafty salespeople).